READ THIS! The Next Generation Of Chinese Counterfeits Have Arrived

You're correct, "NOTHIN IS PERFECT", but we can currently Laser Scan and transfer machine (replicate) within less than a thousandth of an inch.

If haven't familiarity with the current mint development/machining processes for producing its "Master" dies, I suggest you study the process.

I believe you'll find micro-machining processes very interesting if you'd study same.

You're correct that 3D replicant printing is quite crude, with irregular particle distribution, generally within hundredths of an inch, and not suitable for close tolerance regular surface copying, as it's an extrusion process.

Intricant machining processes are currently discussed in units of nano-meters (.00000003937 inches), and extremely difficult to measure.

Replicating a coin so the authenticity can't be determined is relatively a "piece of cake" when you consider the clean room processing of some current devices we "take for granted".

JMHO

 

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I think we'll see them, but they won't come from the Chinese.

 

With a melt value of $2.98 today, how could this be possible? I assume that this isn't the common ones that are being sold for $1.50 each, but it is possible that they are heavily electroplating the planchets prior to striking them. It seems like this would account for the distinct difference in sound. If they are all 90% selling for $1.50, I'm about to be their best customer. I'll get thousands of fakes off of the market and double my money at the same time.

 

My first question was...

What evidence do we have that they were sourced from China?

Even at $5 a pop, is it really worth it? If they were made sometime in the last year with a higher price of spot, how was that worth it?

 

go look on alibaba you can buy anything fake thing you want

 

I honestly wish what you said was true, but you are severely underestimating both technology and the determination of the counterfeiters.

 

With these specs and for $5 or less...

90.39 % Silver
9.12 % Copper
.49% Aluminum

Are you paying attention to the thread?

 

I was thinking the same thing (about purported sales below spot).

Matt, can you give any more details about the scan? Is it possible that its results were thrown off by a heavier-than-normal surface layer of high-silver composition? This seems more plausible than my earlier idea of "sounds different because it was annealed differently".

I suppose it would be possible to grind one down and scan its interior, or dissolve the whole thing and do a quantitative workup (assay)...

 

My apologies! Can you attach a link of a "technology" that is economically feasible of, and capable of producing these indistinguishable counterfeits? You say I "seriously underestimate" while I am saying you have not thoroughly understood and/or know of one that meets the above 2 link posting requests...

 

I'm sorry, but it's believed virtually impossible to convince someone with a negative "mindset", who will not metaphorically drink from the source to which they've been led, to have their thirst quenched.

I explained for the uneducated how they can view the replication process by viewing numerous internet source videos available on-line which show the mint processes for coin generation.

It isn't nuclear technology, which requires an understanding of significantly advanced scientific education. However it isn't a simple process technology that you might find at a "do-it yourself" hobby store (e.g. home depot, menards. etc.).

The process could probably be developed by a beginning Design Engineering student attending a semester class in automated design, which I may have taught.

The technology is relatively simple when applying existing laser identification surfacing technology, CAD modeling, and CNC machining.

The technology is used in proprietary production facilities through-out the world.

I don't believe that any of the process used by our mint, other than maybe the "clay modeling" (normally 3D solids modeling would be the choice of educated designers), is of in-house design. The equipment is generally all available commercially, including stage transfer devices.

How do you think the many competitive PM suppliers, as Silvertowne et al, produce their competitive products at virtually spot prices?

Please review the sources suggested by myself before criticizing objective posts by others.

I believe a study of the complete mint process for coin
production would answer your questions. I've received numerous videos from associates trying to advance my education, showing the entire
process, which I'm certain that your inquisitive mind can locate.

JMHO

 

Conrgats, you have managed to make yourself look like one of the most pompous, arrogant members available. I know with you being a "supporter" of CT that I should know better than to bump heads, or, depending how tightly you suckle from any of the headhunting mods' teets, disagree with anything you say. But, I guess it is in my nature to feel the need to humble those in need of a strong dose, as well as being fundamentally wrong.

I would reason that my knowledge of the minting process, the metals utilized, the machinery utilized, the processes and specifications utilized, etc, by the mint, along with a background in chemistry (and for your weak analogy, lets throw nuclear physics in as well) rivals if not surpasses your own. We can measure by level of degrees earned and if necessary, argue later about quality of university said degree(s) were earned at.

I know that throwing around irrelevant data works with most, that wouldnt have to be too hard, if your IQ was simply 111, you would be smarter than >51% of the population according to the most recent available data following a normal distribution. However, as indicated with your pompousness, I doubt you have entered the 120's. Which would leave us a healthy few or more DECADES apart in that category.

How you interjected the minting process into PERFECT UNIDENTIFIABLE REPLICATION of a coin is ridiculous. Your argument is producing a unique design with no limitations on its process, the others is to mimic the resultant product - I see NO EXAMPLE provided of a laser scanning machine coupled with a laser etching device to make a die, that could then, as you insist on discussing, replicate the minting process from that point on. Show me that and I kindly bow to you and say "Thanks, I didnt think the $5.3M scanner and $12.7M Laser etching device provided would be, as I originally stated, an ECONOMICALLY FEASIBLE concept. The cost of machinery alone is ridiculous - that is, for our poor, unfortunate overly stereotyped peasant chinese forger, but yes, congrats on providing a link to machinery capable; I will begin worrying when it is commercially and economically a threat".

Don't try to throw your own intelligence around. Hang on to it, it is a dwindling resource.

 

And why the JMHO? Do we need to know you are being honest here? Are you normally full of it and had to clarify that your prior posts consisting of mostly BS should carry no weight when deciding how much to factor your "honest opinion"......pffft. If I was instructing your course I would have failed or transferred you away sir. Honestly. Just being honest.

 

Sooo... You guys disagree?

 

Nooo... I don't believe we disagree, merely that we aren't having an objective conversation.

I'm certain that we've both the capabilities to agree.

I've cited examples of virtually perfect replication, presented to the elite TPG who seemingly couldn't and didn't confirm/deny authenticity.

If one were to visit China and understand their system for technological development, an objective intellect would appreciation the unusual marriage between government and developers. A believed unusual system of support by government to developers of technology advancement which would benefit their entire society.

Advanced technology in China, as I've been informed, generally is a cooperative effort between intelligence and government once feasibility of concept is established. Funding for technological advancement is often majorly supplied by government.

Commonplace technology as replication, generally wouldn't be applied by "peasant Chinese forgers" towards production of inexpensive coin specimens.

The commonplace technology has been utilized by savy individuals to produce coins as a 1909P gem condition Double Eagle, and others of which I've examples, and have had analyzed by some of those deemed to be supremely qualified.

A doubter should probably visit China. I believe they could readily view facilities that proudly display capability for Gem (or lesser) quality replication.

My critic is probably correct that the Mint facilities are archaic relative to existing world technology capabilities. He may also be correct that laser technology is incapable of machining replicated coin pieces. I don't believe I've inferred usage in that fashion. I used the technology on many parts in unique pieces of equipment which I designed, and depth control is very limited, generally only recommended for 2D machining application.

I believe if one understands how a U.S. Mint mechanical replication process from hand carved 3D designs is capable of producing a U.S. standard for PR70 quality, they may then understand how replication of existing products could be advanced. If my understanding is incorrect because of fallibility, I'd appreciate an objective detailed correction by one espoused to be a peer, or of superior knowledge. I accept this site as a venue for knowledge advancement, and would defer to an improved understanding of my communicative error.

JMHO

 

This is very cool! I just used the "ignore" function for the first time. Unlike other forums I'm on, where only the content of the ignored party's post is hidden, the CT ignore function appears to remove all evidence of their existence — no avatar, no quoted comments, nothing. Poof! It's like they were never here. Two thumbs way up!

 

Who were you arguing with or felt the need to ignore? Just curious. I don't remember seeing you in any of the scuffle in this thread.

 

Here is how the process works:

As for economic feasibility, yes there is a multi-million dollar initial investment, but over time this cost ends up translating to a few cents per coin produced.

Counterfeiters using laser transfer/etching technology are not working from their mom's basement. This is on an industrial scale. And many of these parties already have access to this kind of technology due to legal ventures they are already doing. In this case they need just a few small software modifications and not a big initial monetary investment.

I think he is talking about the dude that seems to thoroughly enjoy going out of his way to insult people.

 

From my experience, I found that the inexpensive facsimilies found on "alibaba" are hardly copies of our coins.

I believe they're easily recognized as inaccurate portrayals of our currencies by often caricature-like appearance having an altered design, of differing weight and dimensions.

The Alibaba inexpensive facsimilies are seemingly produced of "base metal", rather than precious metal.

JMHO

 

Most people cant tell the difference since all you have to go by is some pic on ebay

 

Nobody. I just get tired of wading through other peoples' arguments-cum-personal-attacks, which occur here ad nauseam.

Scroll up this page and you'll figure it out. The inane arguments are bad enough, but when you add in megalomania to boot, it's just too much. I have better ways to waste my time.

Now he's gone, without so much as a hint of his existence!