Raw coins vs graded encapsulated

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Rick B, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. John Johnson

    John Johnson Well-Known Member

    I actually bought a bunch of white cotton gloves for exactly that reason. I don't even remember what I paid for them, but a couple of years ago I bought a dozen pairs. For many years before that, however, I just tried to minimize the amount of handling I did with any of my coins.
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  3. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    You said you were a newbie and your first two purchases were $30, what else are we to think?

    When people engage on a forum, they infer things that they may not actually have said. So while I don't have a quote from a previous post you made in this thread, I do have what you wrote in response to me several paragraphs below, in section 5 of you rebuttal.

    So how can the existence of the TPGs reduce your field of choices unless there is a financial consideration. If the money isn't the issue, buy the certified coin, and crack it out.

    Here, this quote from you is from a few pages back. When you say that "wall street took over the hobby" what could you possibly mean other than they caused prices to rise? Again, you inferred it.

    And unless you are the submitter, the certification cost is not your concern. You didn't pay the certification fee, and the submitter can't pass it along to the buyer, all he can do is sell the coin for the assigned price range.

    No, you aren't. I have been collecting coins for decades. I'm an expert at grading Jefferson Nickels, I am very proficient in grading all 20th Century silver and Morgan Dollars. That said, there are still entire genres of coins that I would still be considered a novice at grading (eg. Gold, Copper, Early US (pre civil war) Coins). My point is that you can't just "learn it" and expect to be as good or better than the professional graders at the TPGs, it simply isn't realistic.

    Nonsense! Do you have a hammer? Earlier in this post, you were adamant that TPG graded coins did not put coins out of your price range, put your money where your mouth is.

    I don't understand the grading of comic books either, but coins are a whole different ball game. The storage protection that certification provides is invaluable and considering that the coins will survive much longer than we (humans) will, we have a responsibility to be the best conservators that we can be. You have referenced the pros and cons of TPG grading, yet the only con I hear you saying they turn "art into science". The inherent subjectivity in grading ensures that grading will always be an art form, but TPG grading removes the power structure imbalance between collector and dealer that existed in an all raw market, and levels the playing field. What are the cons that are so egregious that would make you say the following?

  4. fiddlehead

    fiddlehead Well-Known Member

    Raw coins are much more fun than slabbed ones - some of my favorites are raw and I enjoy having gentle contact with them. But I go both ways. I usually store my raw coins in airtights.
    Penny Luster, BSquared and Rick B like this.
  5. Deerslayer88

    Deerslayer88 New Member

    I can see buying raw coins of low value, but if I'm spending $500-2500 (my normal range) per coin, I only feel alright about buying certified coins. This is especially true when buying online (sight unseen).
  6. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    I wonder if any coin big wigs made a fortune when the system changed from one uncirculated category to eleven. What if you had a large collection of UNC coins back when there was just "UNC". I see in the red book that a coin valued at $10 in Unc could suddenly, when the MS60-70 system came into being, be worth far more. As you move up from MS60 to MS70, the values go up exponentially. A $10 MS60 coin could be $1000 or more in MS70. So if you had a large UNC collection that you paid low prices for, and a bunch of them could suddenly be graded as MS65 or whatever, what a windfall!
    Just a thought. I wonder if there was a lot of this happening.
    Penny Luster likes this.
  7. Morgandude11

    Morgandude11 As long as it's Silver, I'm listening

    You came here, as a new guy on the block. That is cool, we welcome new members enthusiastically. After announcing that you are an exclusively raw coin collector, you proceeded to put down the serious, experienced collectors who do buy slabbed coins. Then, you intimated that we are not collectors, just investors. On top of that, you intimated that people who buy encapsulated coins don’t know how to grade. All I can say is WOW! If one wants to talk about prejudices and preconceived notions, you hit the jackpot! All of us acknowledged the benefits of raw coin collection, and acknowledged that there are many ways to be a hobbyist. In fact a EddieSpin and I have been good naturedly debating this issue for years. But, to come in here, as a cheap coin collector, and categorically put down a bunch of people with considerable expertise, once again, WOW! I have a reputation of being kind of feisty here, but you leave me at an absolute loss of words to describe that level of presumptuous attitude!!!!
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2020
  8. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    Back then there was BU (60-62?), Choice BU (63-64?), and Gem BU (65+?). Maybe I'm wrong, being in my own little world, but people paid more for "UNC's" if they were choice or gem. All "UNC's" were NOT treated the same; at least by the experienced collector.
  9. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    In my opinion, very profound words! It is now 70 years since a 9 YO boy walking past a BM shop contiguous to our parochial school lot stopped to ask if the owner would trade a lot of foreign coins for a little boys hidden labor under a counter.

    I worked in that shop, and by "word of mouth" was offered many other "opportunities" by BM dealers who accepted my efforts for coins that weren't normally circulating.

    I started with Indian and large cents, never bothering with circulating coins. I could easily trade my collectibles for coins in circulation, found by others.

    I definitely learned "quality", once you learned generally how a coin abraded, and saved coins based on deterioration.

    Collectors loved my assortments in the various "grades", and gladly paid a premium.

    I still collect on a "wear" basis, and a premium coin is often sent to NGC or PCGS, before being CACed for believed ultimate verification of quality.

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  10. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    Gee, all I can say is wow because you have misinterpreted me big time. I'm sorry for that. I honestly don't know what to say. I never put anyone down for slabs. I never said I was exclusively a raw collector. I never said slab collectors were exclusively investors. I never said slab collectors don't know how to grade. I guess I should go back and delete all my posts that have been misinterpreted.
    I am truly sorry this all got out of hand and misinterpreted.
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  11. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    Pleases show me where I was putting anyone down. Here are my posts that show that I prefer raw but I don't put down slab collectors:

    I know my criticism of slabs does NOT apply to all coin collectors. And no matter what I say, I still agree that it's an individual matter. My thoughts are initial as a newbie and a generalization.

    I want to emphasize what I said at the end of my post because this is my strongest belief about it: "I still agree that it's an individual matter". In other words, to each their own and good luck to all of us!

    A lot of good points about TPG's. Again, I'm a newbie so I may change my tune over time. I'm allowing for that! But I think I'll always prefer raw. But I may indulge in slabs some day for higher priced coins.

    I never said having coins certified has no point. It is just a matter of what one likes. I'm a raw guy. That doesn't mean I see no point in certification.

    Sure, I'm not promoting them (slabs). But I'm not AGAINST them. I just am not interested in them myself. You make it sound like I'm putting people down for using them. Nowhere in my posts does it remotely say that.

    I will buy slabbed coins but I will break them out.

    There is a compromise: for high value coins I could buy a slabbed coin but break it out for my collection. The hobby aspect of it is more important to me than concern about reselling it.

    My very first post could use some editing after further consideration, but I would point out that many “like” it.
    Skyman, Some Aussie, coin_nut and 18 others like this

    Anyway, does anyone else feel like I put you down and over stepped? If so, I'll go away. But if it's just one dude, I'll stick around.
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  12. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    I was just looking at price guides from back then and all I see is G VG ...up to UNC. So I guess I'm wrong and shouldn't have made an assumption based on the red book price guides from back then. If there were 60-65 grades, they aren't in the red book. Or maybe I'm going back further than when the BU's came into being?
    Anyway, it was just an interesting thought I had.
  13. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    There's always been some form of grading even if it was just as crude as "this one costs more because it looks nicer"
  14. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    Please don't "go away", as I've said, it's believed that the majority would prefer "raw coins". As I've seen from individuals who are buying my Craigslist Gold coin offerings of sight-seen coins that I've removed from the top TPG slabs that were believed improperly returned as a "detail" coin. The coins are sold as detail, but sold raw, as buyers believe they're paying a premium for the "slab", although I guarantee authenticity, and sell appreciably below any legitimate "comp".

    I've had several buyers ask that I find, and give them the original slab. I'm still looking for some holders that were opened in the past, as some TPG (e.g. SEGS) slabs are difficult to open intact.

  15. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    Thanks :)
  16. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    The Red Book didn't differentiate UNC coins but dealers used BU, choice BU, gem BU to describe their coins. Buyers paid more for gem coins.
    Lehigh96 likes this.
  17. wxcoin

    wxcoin Getting no respect for 64 years

    There are those that break out coins from a details slab and then sell them raw without mentioning that they were details graded by a TPG. I wonder how many times some raw (previously detailed) coins have been repeatedly submitted to a TPG for grading by different people?
  18. Rick B

    Rick B Well-Known Member

    Can you elaborate on what is meant by a "detail" coin?
  19. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Unfortunately this happens a lot especially on the local and regional show tour. I know of many dealers that do that and a couple where they basically source all of their "nice expensive" coins that way. Sadly the people that buy them generally never know for many years if they don't submit it.

    While there are legitimate coins that get detailed that shouldn't have and it's fine if they want to try it again thinking it was a raw deal, the making those raw again is a business model for some people which is one of the pitfalls people were trying to warn him about
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  20. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    "The coins are sold as DETAIL, but sold raw, as buyers believe they're paying a premium for the "slab", although I guarantee authenticity".

    The majority of the coins are sold where the slab is indicated to show authenticity, as I'd previously done on this site, at a bargain price, without any interest.

    The buyers couldn't believe they were authentic at my asking price, certified by NGC, who I believe often improperly "details" coins. PCGS less often, based upon my experience.

    On expensive classic Gold, as cc Double Eagles, I have stopped resubmitting because of increased expense and potential loss, often just offering to associates at ~melt.

    I have realized a proper grade, and thousands in value, on some resubmitted, but dealing with my intermediary and the TPGs is overwhelming, when submitting at a show, required for security.

    I no longer submit directly to TPG, but buy "sight-seen" graded coins directly, as I believe, TPG grading is currently an unknown ART.

    wxcoin likes this.
  21. TypeCoin971793

    TypeCoin971793 Just a random guy on the internet

    a coin can be of a particular state of preservation in regards to circulation (say XF), but has some significant damage that severely decreases its value with respect to that level of preservation. A coin graded XF details will have detailing commensurate with that of XF coins, but it will have damage that makes it worth much less than problem-free XF coins.

    The problem with the TPGs is that they are woefully inconsistent with what is considered significant damage. A coin with a major scratch will sometimes get a pass, while a tiny gouge will be called “details”. The coin with the scratch is worth twice as much as the one with the tiny gouge. Crack them out of the holder, and the one with the scratch magically becomes worth less than the one with the gouge. Again, more evidence that the value of coins are solely determined by the holder and no longer by the coins themselves.

    This coin is worth half as much as the second coin. Oh wait...

    548797FB-D546-46E1-8BEA-BC1B482ABA81.jpeg 7433DA82-54F6-46BF-8B4D-FA3222D21F4F.jpeg
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