Quiz time - is this the same coin?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by GregH, Sep 21, 2021.

?

Are these photos of the same coin?

  1. Yes - absolutely. A clear match of the same coin taken under different photographic conditions!

    2 vote(s)
    14.3%
  2. No - something dodgy is going on here

    12 vote(s)
    85.7%
  1. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    AF91D20D-FA84-43C3-959D-7BB078065758.jpeg CBCF5382-84A1-4DB5-A67F-74CBDE85639B.jpeg 651F3684-AB0A-4C76-A76B-7BFFED136E71.jpeg 184FBDE5-2C4A-45D9-9233-E6349BABB632.jpeg Howdy folks! Here’s a question. And I’ll explain why I’m asking shortly. Are these images the exact same coin? Or is one a transfer die forgery of the other?
     
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  3. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .

    It does look like a cast replica.

    Z
     
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  4. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your vote! You were the first! :)
     
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  5. ZoidMeister

    ZoidMeister Hamlet Squire of Tomfoolery . . . . .


    There's a first for everything.

    OMG, two firsts in row . . .

    It's still a very close cast.

    Z
     
  6. Orielensis

    Orielensis Supporter! Supporter

    I'm not good at this and the images are of different quality, but the letter details of the second coin look much less sharp and well-defined than on the first coin. I suspect something dodgy is going on.

    Bildschirmfoto 2021-09-21 um 13.00.49.png
     
  7. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Which one was listed first? Because if they are the same coin, the top one has been cleaned sometime after the lower one was sold.
     
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  8. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    The top one was listed on Leu in August. The bottom one appeared on eBay in September.
     
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  9. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Supporter! Supporter

    Photos can be misleading if you change the lighting and the angle ...
    It will be easier to compare them if you'd post the 2 examples side by side. Do you have the weight of the two coins?
     
  10. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    3.86g and 3.66g respectively. But maybe the seller made a typo.
     
  11. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    My personal opinion is same coin, different photographic conditions.

    The tiny bumps and crevices along the rims look identical to me. A transfer die forgery would replicate the devices but I’m not sure it would replicate the flan shape?
     
  12. gsimonel

    gsimonel Supporter! Supporter

    There are a lot of subtle scratches on the top coin that I don't see in the bottom one. The bottom coin has a lot of dirt on it that is not on the top coin, so that could be the explanation. But I'm looking at the little series of gouges in the field above the elephant's head. Some are on both coins, some are on only the top coin. The ones that are on both seem softer and less distinct on the bottom coin.

    I can't understand why someone would buy the coin from Leu and then try to sell it on eBay. Seems like prices are always higher for professional dealers that on eBay. Furthermore, I can't see how that dirt would accumulate on the second coin. Lighting and photographic quality can have a profound effect on a coin's appearance, but why replace a decent dealer's photo with an inferior one if you're trying to sell it? I certainly would not buy the coin without getting to seethe seams.

    Actually, I wouldn't buy a coin of Julius Caesar from eBay, period (and I sell on eBay).
     
  13. GregH

    GregH Well-Known Member

    Makes sense. eBay isn’t a great place to sell expensive coins. The Leu coin hammered for 1400CHF, double the coin’s value in my opinion. This is, after all, a common non-portrait Julius Caesar denarius in average condition. The seller cannot hope to improve on that price on eBay!
     
  14. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Agree. That's a very dodgy thing to do -- buy a coin from Leu, put some fake deposits around the devices, take a crappy photo of it, then list it a month later on eBay. That makes no sense at all. More likely to be two separate (fake) coins.
     
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  15. Orielensis

    Orielensis Supporter! Supporter

    Or someone bought a genuine coin from Leu and used it to produce cast fakes.
     
  16. gsimonel

    gsimonel Supporter! Supporter

    That's my suspicion.
     
  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    I see no way that this involves a die transfer forgery. It would be a cast if it is fake. I'm suspecting the lower coin has residue from polishing compound leaving a waxy residue in places rather than dirt. The easy answer is that cast fakes were made and the surfaces were buffed down to make them look 'better'. Another case is that a decent original was abused to the point that it is not worth a tenth of the Leu price. I can't say I know which is the case so I fail the quiz. It is possible to take two coins, one real and one fake and polish them both to a point where they both look terrible. In a practical sense, I would have to 'value' the bottom coin as if it were the 'processed' cast fake. I hope the top coin still exists. It is too nice to have been destroyed. Are there people stupid enough to buy a coin for 1400CHF and give it a good scrub and polish? Yes. The answer here may come when we see another coin matching the bottom one. Fakers tend to make more than one while they are at it. Also, the answer would come if the top coin shows up in the hands of another auction seller using a different photo than the Leu image. Could the difference between the to be entirely in the photo quality. Would it be possible to take a photo of that top coin so terrible that it looked like the bottom while the coin remained unchanged? Never underestimate to power of poor photography. Did the coin sell on eBay? Either way, we need to watch for it to be offered again.
     
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  18. dltsrq

    dltsrq Grumpy Old Man

    Compare the edge beading at 11h on the elephant side. They can not be the same coin and they can not both be genuine.
     
    Roman Collector likes this.
  19. David@PCC

    David@PCC allcoinage.com

    My opinion is the 2nd coin is a cast copy of the first. Bad photography could explain some discrepancies, but the lack of details, mysteriously added deposits, and slight variations to the surface lead to my conclusion.
     
    GregH likes this.
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