Question on TPG grading cleaned coins

I understand that many years ago, cleaning a coin was not as much an unacceptable practice as it is today. So, my questions for back in those days:

(1) When a cleaned coin was submitted to a TPG, am I correct that it didn't receive a "Details" grade?

(2) If that assumption in (1) is correct, did they down grade it by a point or two?

(3) What happens now to all the slabbed cleaned coins with straight grades from the past?

Thanks as always.

 

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Slabbed ? Mine came back in the same flip it was sent in . Environmental Damage . PCGS . 1847 large Cent .

 

They just started putting cleaned coins in slabs and calling them details a few years ago. They used to return them ungraded and unslabbed. That's where the term body bagged came from.

 

More than a decade ago.

 

Well time flies.

 

I see. So they never slabbed cleaned coins, even when cleaning was "allowed" back many years ago? Ok, so my assumption that they did was wrong to start with then. Thanks everyone.

 

Once upon a time, I was managing a small coin shop. A woman came in with an 1877 "Indian penny" she had found while digging in her garden. Not just any old cent, mind you, but an 1877. Lucky lady! The coin had plenty of detail but a green patina of the sort that would look nice on an ancient Roman bronze. We paid what we thought was a fair price and passed it on to one of our regulars at close to cost. Our customer scrubbed the thing with toothpaste until all the green was gone and then evened out the color with commercial copper toner. He sent it off to one of the two major TPGs. It came back VF30 straight grade! The gospel truth, folks.

 

Expression was they'd "body bag" them.

 

Thanks for that story. If she had submitted it with the patina left on, would it have been returned in a body bag also, or slabbed as Environmental Damage?

 

To suggest that the TPGs never slabbed cleaned coins or that they never do it now is a mistake. What they try not to do is slab coins that show obvious results of cleaning like hairlines or obviously wrong color.

MANY cleaned coins are in slabs today.

 

As far as cleaned coins being straight graded and placed in slabs. A great example would be seated dollars. Large percentage of those in straight graded slabs have been cleaned to some degree. They won't look like they were cleaned with steel wool but the chance of any seated dollar being mint state or proof and still white or close to white is almost impossible. They simply didn't have air tight holders in the 1800's right up to the 1950's. The same can be said of circulated seated dollars. This is when the term market acceptable comes into play.

 

It sounds like you are confusing dipping with cleaning, and it's not the same thing. A cleaned coin has had medal moved around and might be hairlined or polished. A dipped coin has had tarnished metal removed by dipping in a mild acid. As long as the dipping has been done too often or for too long, it's acceptable to the general market.

Some collectors reject all dipped coins, and that's their decision. What a lot of them don't understand is that some of the "original coins" they are buying have been dipped and re-toned usually on their own.

Most every early coin has been worked on at one time or another. If you rejected all of the pieces that have ever had anything done to them, there would not be much left to collect.

 

The problem is: 1. NO ONE knows what the proper procedure is when cleaning coins and the TPG will NOT tell you. I have a coin (1820 (no serifs) that is toned and D I R T Y. It is a coin from my grandfather and I have called and ask BOTH ngc and pcgs their opinion on the proper way to clean the coin so as not to have it come back "details" BOTH said do not clean it send it in for restoration. In other words they want to make you PAY for something that should be allowed.
DOES ANYONE know how to properly clean a coin. Perhaps "Insider" can respond.
Stay safe in 21
Semper Fi

 

Okay, certain cleaning good, bad cleaning not good. What am I missing here? What Has been engrained in us is no longer right, ancients clean newbies never! I'm a bit confused. I believe we needed this post, thank you.

 

Wasn't cleaning coins a much more accepted practice at one time than it is now? What changed? I've seen seated dollars (for example) at shows that were OBVIOUSLY cleaned harshly and had zero eye appeal, at least to me. When did cleaning become a less accepted practice?

 

Don't know how long ago this occurred, but ANACS was grading cleaned Morgan silver dollars. Actual grade plus blurb that the coin was cleaned or harshly cleaned. In fact, there are several examples for sale on e-Bay as of this post.

 

Any method that can alter the surface of the coin is cleaning. However, sometimes cleaning is required to save coin from further damage. Dipping removes tarnish which is done by stripping off some of the surface metal. Soaking in acetone, detergent or water is a form of cleaning. Then there is wiping, scrubbing and wire brush. Some of these methods are acceptable and others are not. When not done correctly the coin is given a details grade. Those that have been lightly cleaned are normally considered market acceptable and will normally be straight graded. A recently new terminology for a cleaned coin that has been applied is called Saltwater Affect. A silver coin in a slab that has been given a label stating saltwater affect is a play on words. That coin has been chemically cleaned to remove encrusted material on a silver or gold coin that was found in the ocean. The silver coins that have been processed in this method are generally looking like the coin was severely corroded.

 

Many years ago, I got interested in coin collecting when I inherited my father's coin collection. I started reading about coins..Silver coins, Gold coins, and many other types. I decided that I wanted to see some coins that were in a coin store. I lucked up and found a dealer that bought and sold coins. He showed me several gold coins and he recommended a couple. I bought them Raw. He suggested that I should have them graded. He was going to a show shortly and recommended that I have them graded by a company that should be there and I could save some money by him having get them graded at the show. He took them to the show and they were graded. When he returned, they had been graded by NGC, a very reputable company. One of the coins was a 1895 $10 Liberty Eagle, It was graded MS61. Being new, I didn't know if it was good or not. Anyway, the other coin was a 1904 Liberty Double Eagle. It came back with "UNC. Details-Obverse Scratched" The question I have is, has the coin been cleaned and they just wanted to avoid that?
I've not had any coins graded since. Most gold and silver are from the mint.

 

Scratched would mean a specific scratch or group of scratches that should be very visible to the naked eye.

It’s my understanding that when a coin gets a details designation, the most severe problem is what goes on the label. So it could be cleaned too, but the scratches are worse. Perhaps someone else could chime in and confirm this.