Question on MS 70 Grading

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by justinjj, Jul 21, 2006.

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  1. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    oh well ;) I was hoping to learn something new---
    Do you know of any good books on the minting process?...I have one book that goes over it but I would like to know alot more about it.

    Speedy
     
    Speedy, Jul 22, 2006
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  3. bzcollektor

    bzcollektor SSDC Life Member

    MY personal belief is that only ICG and lesser TPG`s wholesale MS70 and PF70 grades. I am an NGC fan (also ANACS). I think PCGS holds the proper track on these MODERN 70`s- Almost non existant. Being an NGC fan, I think they have FAR TOO MANY of the MS70 and PF 70. I have NEVER even seen ANY coin graded MS70 or PF70 by ANACS. Maybe you have one. I would like to see a pic of one.
     
    bzcollektor, Jul 22, 2006
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  4. coldhardcash

    coldhardcash Member

    I think one possible way to sort this out is keep in mind what the 0-70 grade scale intended. I'm not sure where MS 70 = perfect got started. Technically, nothing is perfect that is made by man. Microscopes will prove that. I always understood that MS 70 is the BEST coin that CAN be struck with with dies made by the best technology of the time, and in a fairly early die state. Anything negetive that happens to the coin during and after that point can and will reduce the grade. Now, we must also remember what the TPG's are. They are opinions of grade, and as always, opinions vary. There are coins out there that that are MS 70 according to this criteria. There are no perfect coins. Never will be, but should have the potential to improve over time. JMO
     
    coldhardcash, Jul 22, 2006
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  5. vincent2920

    vincent2920 Senior Member

    Most likely NGC hired an EX-SGS grader .... Wow.. That would make the front page. !!
     
    vincent2920, Jul 22, 2006
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  6. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Right on. I'm with ya.

    And by that standard, the original issue of "Is this Buffalo $50 really a 70"... the answer is clearly "no".
     
    900fine, Jul 22, 2006
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  7. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me



    Well, I checked the PCGS population reports, and you're right. PCGS has far, far fewer 70s than NGC.

    I posted the NGC census for Proof Eagle Bullion earlier in this thread. I did the same analysis for PCGS, and here's what I found...

    Proof Eagle Bullion total :96,219
    PR69 DC: 87,427 (91%)
    PR70 DC: 1,774 (less than 2%)

    Almost all of the PR70s are since 2000… much fewer in the 80s or 90s. I think that indicates Mint manufacturing standards / equipment is improving.
     
    900fine, Jul 22, 2006
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  8. Cloudsweeper99

    Cloudsweeper99 Treasure Hunter

    I recall reading someplace, I don't recall the source, that the 70 grade was for coins with no contact marks or scratches visible under 4X magnification. All of this stuff about using microscopes makes me wonder what the goals are for some people collecting and paying huge premiums for this stuff. I don't own any 70s -- I'm not willing to pay up for it. I own a few 69 graded gold coins, but for the life of me I don't see any substantial difference between them and the 66s. Sometimes you can get three 66s for the price of one 70 and at some level of quality, quantity becomes more important than quality. I just can't bring myself to play and pay for the game of "my coin is better than your coin."
     
    Cloudsweeper99, Jul 22, 2006
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  9. CoinDude08

    CoinDude08 New Member


    Or TPG's are starting to let more slide so people can pay high prices for an MS70 that I would consider an MS69. I am personally collecting a set of PCGS graded Kennedy Halves, my one requirement? I want them to be PR69DCAM. I'm crazy!!! Ahahaha!!!
     
    CoinDude08, Jul 23, 2006
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  10. Speedy

    Speedy Researching Coins Supporter

    If you think that is crazy wait untill you hear what I want to do....since I'm working on this set of Proof Franklins all in PF66....I'm thinking that I could go on to Kennedys but I want them all PF66 :D :D :D
    Then maybe years down the road I can also get the WL and Barber Halves Proofs and hope they will also be PF66.

    Speedy
     
    Speedy, Jul 23, 2006
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  11. Dragon

    Dragon New Member

    I have been wondering about this for awhile. It seems to me that the new mint products are very nicely struck and the difference between the higher grades is very hard to distinguish. I don't understand why people are paying money to have these coins graded. If people are thinking they have a rare coin because is it a 69 or 70, my guess is that there are thousands more just waiting to be graded at that grade, wihich will lower prices if they ever get high enough to encourage people to pay the money to get them graded. Then again, i never thoght people would pay $2.50 fora bottle of water.
     
    Dragon, Jul 23, 2006
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  12. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    As with anything else, it all boils down to how you define something. In this case how do you define MS or PF70 - or in other words what grading standards do you use ? Your own, the ANA's or somebody else's ? And the next step is - how do you determine if the coin in question meets that criteria ?

    The ANA standards say that no contact marks or hairlines show under magnification. So OK, how much magnification ? Well they tell ya that too - the ANA recommends 3x to 7x, no more. Which is why most experienced graders will tell you to use a 5x - split the difference if you will. So, if a coin meets these criteria ( as well as the other listed criteria for the grade ) then it is worthy of the grade. But there is a problem - none of the grading companies use the ANA standards - they each use their own. That of course always leads to the my dog is better than your dog discussion. And that always leads to the counting ( pop reports ) discussion.

    Well lemme tell ya - you can discuss until the cows come home about which company has the most strict standards for grading coins and you can count until you run out of numbers - and you won't prove anything. There is only one thing that proves anything at all - the coins themselves. And you can't do it with just a single coin, you have to use groups of coins.

    Take an equally sized group of coins graded as 70's by each of the grading companies - compare them. Know what you'll find ? You'll find that in some cases coins graded by NGC are nicer than those graded by PCGS. And in others you'll find that coins graded by PCGS are nicer than those graded by NGC. And in some cases you'll find that coins graded by ICG are every bit the equal of those graded by NGC and PCGS. But what is even more interesting is that you'll find examples from PCGS that are nicer than others graded by PCGS - and the same is true of NGC and ICG as well.

    Now - what does this tell you ?
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 23, 2006
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  13. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger New Member

    Buy the coin NOT the plastic... :D:eek: :eek: :eek: :D

    Bone
     
    Bonedigger, Jul 23, 2006
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  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well yeah Bone, but it tells ya a little more than that. Forget about the grading companies - they are different, always have been and always will be. What it should tell you is that no two coins are identical.

    Just about any experienced collector will readily admit that there are differences between any two coins graded exactly the same by the same company - the very same grader even. There are low end, medium and high end examples for any grade. Just about everybody accepts this and understands it. Well it's the same for the 70 grades - they are no different.

    But everybody seems to forget that when it comes to a 70 - they throw logic right out the window and rely upon emotion instead. It's because people tend to form a picture in their head of what defines perfect - they forget the criteria and ignore it, they get hung up on a single word. But the grade isn't based on single word - it's based upon the criteria. And as long as the coin meets that criteria - then that's what it is.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 23, 2006
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  15. bqcoins

    bqcoins Olympic Figure Skating Scoring System Expert

    I have never seen a ms/pr 70, even ones that are marked so in my eyes haven't been, and I fully expect that during my life I will only ever see a handful, if that many. IMO it is an unattainable grade
     
    bqcoins, Jul 23, 2006
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  16. airedale

    airedale New Member

    I would have to think that if you had 2 PR/MS 70 coins the same year etc. you could not tell them apart ( except for the slab ) as they are both perfect. A low end 70 would be a 69 IMHO.
     
    airedale, Jul 23, 2006
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  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    The previous two posts are perfect examples of what I am talking about. And I mean no disrespect whatsoever.

    bqcoins - you say in your opinion that it is an unattainable grade. There's nothing wrong with that, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to use their own grading standards. But that's exactly what you are doing - using your own standards. You are not using the grading standard set forth by the ANA nor are you using one established by one of the TPGs - you are using yours. However, I'd be willing to bet that if I asked you to write those standards down you'd have a hard time doing it because you never have. You merely have some preconceived notion or a picture in your head of what constitutes the 70 grade which is based upon one word - perfect.

    And airedale - you also reiterate exactly what I commented on earlier. You presume that because it is the 70 grade that all coins graded thus must be the same - in your words perfect. But if I were to ask you if all coins graded as MS65 ( or any other number, take your pic ) were identical you would say no they are not. And rightly so for they are not the same. By the same token, neither are those graded as 70 - they merely meet the criteria.

    You see that's the problem with the word perfect - how do you define it ? No marks, no flaws, no hairlines - OK fine. The standards for a 70 coin say the same thing. But they also mention luster and eye appeal. And it is not only possible for two of the same coins to be graded as 70 and yet have different degrees of luster and eye appeal - it is almost impossible for them not to. And this is my point - they are not the same. You can look at them and tell them apart. You may have a hard time describing it and putting it into words, but you can see it.

    This is what people miss, this is what they forget to take into account when talking about coins graded as 70. They are no different than coins of other grades in that regard.
     
    GDJMSP, Jul 23, 2006
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  18. airedale

    airedale New Member

    I sure have to agree with you GDJMSP that " eye appeal " will always be a loophole. However I put perfect in the same class with pregnant. There are no varying degrees.
     
    airedale, Jul 23, 2006
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  19. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Here's a listing for an ANACS PF-70 DCAM Bullion Silver Eagle, for sale on Teletrade right now...

    http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.asp?auction=2235&lot=1935

    Interesting that it's a 1986. Population reports on PCGS and NGC suggest there were much fewer 70s back then. Plus, it's "First year of issue". One expects more problems for that reason, plus manufacturing technology has improved in those 20 years.
     
    900fine, Jul 23, 2006
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  20. Bonedigger

    Bonedigger New Member

    And here is an ANACS MS-69 for comparison. I can assure you any marks seen are on the holder.

    B

    [​IMG]
     
    Bonedigger, Jul 23, 2006
    #39 + Quote Reply
  21. 900fine

    900fine doggone it people like me

    Tells me the final arbiter of grade is the buyer.

    And yes... there will always be variance... within a TPG, and certainly between them.
     
    900fine, Jul 23, 2006
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