Question for the Dippers

If it looks like a duck and doesn’t quack it’s NOT a
I just call um as I sees um.

 

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Oops, Duck

 

Dipping is part of conservation processes. No one likes coin doctors that puddy gold or retool things for those reasons, dipping just is not in the same league as them.

I certainly feel for your disappointment with the process of what happened, but it is also entirely possible that shop told you that to either try and buy it cheap or to just trash the other shop so that your business would go to them. That happens a lot with raw coins as some people will say anything to try and make a buck or get business. Things like that are one of the major reasons the TPGs ended up playing such a significant role

 

This was the seventies no slabs and internet. It’s was a crap coin and he knew it. I had looked at that coin for weeks. I had bought from this guy for over four years by then but only Lincolns. He saw me coming. PERIOD.

 

I can 100% guarantee you that both PCGS and NGC have "ACID based cleaners" in the facilities and use them regularly on coins where they are providing a conservation service.

 

I'm sorry you got taken...but that doesn't mean properly conserving a coin is a bad thing. Toning can destroy a coin...PERIOD.

 

That's why I mentioned the other possibility, the other dealer may have been the one that saw you coming. He may have also been wrong or been someone that just says everything is over-dipped. We will never know for sure at this point but there are a lot of other very possible explanations.

 

Dipping or otherwise properly cleaning a coin is an attempt at conservation of the coin to make it appear its best, but fundamentally the coin remains as it is. The dipping/conservation only removes factors that may be hindering the value of the coin.

On the other hand, doctoring is altering the coin to make it appear as if it is in better condition or more valuable (as with an added MM, etc.) than it really is. The coin doctor increases the value of the coin through deception. And that is the key between conserving and doctoring, the intent to deceive.

 

If it didn’t alter the METAL surface of the coin then it’s just a cleaned coin with NO EFFECT TO THE METAL.
ACID EATS METAL thus altering the surface=Doctored! It takes microscopic divots from the surface of a coin thus altering the surface. You see a butt load of slabbed coins on EBay that came back as cleaned with what ever details. DOCTORS!! Albeit bad ones. I ASK AGAIN is that good for the hobby it’s like a big old lie that’s been told for years. Just go and find some better examples sheesh. That’s what I do when I have a coin that’s not up to snuff. The coin industry is still reading from the OVER cleaning and Doctoring of coins. You silver guys can’t hardly buy a coin that hasn’t been dipped at least once. And the grading services won’t mention it unless is so bad even a newb could see it. So now you have slabbed coins that have been dipped. Incomprehensible!

 

Reeling

 

baseball21, posted: "That the weird red background is likely playing a role in the color showing."

Actually, that coin on any background will look "pink" = Not original surface in any way.

352sdeer, posted: "Please read and understand what I’m saying. Those coin doctors aren’t doctors at all the are conservators of coins they clean not degrade coins for a living. It’s not the same. I'm glad to know you have been inside a conservation lab to make that statement ( I have, and much of your post is just ). Nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinion as I feel you are just trying to help all of us. So thanks. I can BET you you won’t find coin care at NGC or PCGS or nic-o-date or any ACID base cleaner. YOU WOULD LOSE THAT BET BIG TIME! And by the edited Please, you don't need to use this type of word to get all the misinformation you are spewing as fact across to folks who are informed. it’s okay to dip I just don’t like it. If it bothers you that much to be known as a Doctor then don’t do it. JUST MY OPINION.

REASON WHY I HATE DOCTORS: When I was twelve I bought my first silver only to be told by the other coin shop in town it had been dipped to many times and that the nice flat white surface was all wrong and I had been taken. It took me long time to get over that. I had to collect bottles for half the summer for that coin. Never have I purchased silver since. And I will never purchase silver again because of that. Now you tell me was it a good thing that guy back in 1973 DOCTORED his coins? He almost blew me out of the hobby was that good? How many more people have been BURNNED by EVIL COIN DOCTORS. And one kid is to much to loose from our hobby. So if a coin goes bad what do you do? Destroy it? Smash it? Use it as a target? NO you keep it or sell it either way it finds it’s way back into general population, some other suckers gonna have it! Is that good? Not in my opinion.

I suggest that you may wish to GET OVER IT. You are one of the lucky ones who learned a lesson for just a few coke bottles rather than thousands of dollars. Most of us here had it much rougher.

Now, learn that cleaning coins is only bad if it can be detected. When it cannot, it is called conservation. Many coins have been saved for posterity by folks you call dippers and doctors and many more have been ruined by folks you call dippers and doctors.

 

The point you seem to be missing is that dipping a coin protects the surface. Yes, a mild acid is used and if it is used improperly it can damage the coin. But...all coins develop an oxide layer on them over time. This is because all metal (even gold) is reactive. If given enough time, this oxide layer can become damaging to the coin itself...it will eat away the surface. Removing it prevents this from happening.

 

That's fine but what do you mean by "proper numismatic terminology"? You are saying it's incorrect in numismatic terminology to call a dipper a dipper. You might be if the opinion that a dipper is also a coin doctor but that would be using the term coin doctor incorrectly in the eyes of the numismatic community. There's dipping and there's coin doctoring. I think you don't like dipped coins. That does mean they are doctored. This is a distinction that is just commonly known. You should say you hate dippers and coin doctors Or say whatever you want; it's a free country.

 

I honestly don't know if any of this is "proper numismatic terminology." I think it comes down to a problem free coin verses and improperly cleaned coin.

 

The surface of a coin isn't always metallic.

I don't get the distinction you're trying to make. Obviously just about anything you do to a coin will alter the "metal" surface of the coin, but the words conservation and doctoring apply to what you can do to a coin. I assure you these are real words with real meanings and there is a meaningful distinction between the two.

By your definition, anyone who circulates a coin in commerce is a coin doctor. They're altering the surface. Coin doctors! It just ain't so.

 

352sdeer, posted: "If it didn’t alter the METAL surface of the coin then it’s just a cleaned coin with NO EFFECT TO THE METAL.
ACID EATS METAL thus altering the surface=Doctored! It takes microscopic divots from the surface of a coin thus altering the surface. You see a butt load of slabbed coins on EBay that came back as cleaned with what ever details. DOCTORS!! Albeit bad ones. I ASK AGAIN is that good for the hobby it’s like a big old lie that’s been told for years. Just go and find some better examples sheesh. That’s what I do when I have a coin that’s not up to snuff. The coin industry is still reading from the OVER cleaning and Doctoring of coins. You silver guys can’t hardly buy a coin that hasn’t been dipped at least once. And the grading services won’t mention it unless is so bad even a newb could see it. So now you have slabbed coins that have been dipped. Incomprehensible!"

First, I see you just joined CT yesterday. WELCOME! Word of advice. You may wish to hang around awhile before posting. You see, every thing you are posting has been discussed here for decades. It gets really old when the new guy joins and starts spouting off opinions. Hopefully, you will learn many things here. One thing you should realize is you are a speck of dust in the big world of numismatics. We are all little specks. It is really nice to have a place like Coin Talk to land on. If we have good things to add to discussions and stay civil with no anger or F-words, we'll remain on the surface. If we post ignorant things, misinformation, or are disagreeable to others, we will be BLOWN AWAY into oblivion. I say good riddance.

PS What brand of microscope do you use to examine those microscopic divots you describe. How about a photo?

PPS This is nonsense: "If it didn’t alter the METAL surface of the coin then it’s just a cleaned coin with NO EFFECT TO THE METAL.

NEWS FLASH: Cleaning, both chemical and mechanical DOES ALTER THE SURFACE OF METAL!

SO PLEASE

 

Bingo and my advice is to wait for the best coin you can afford and not buy any “Dr Whizzer” coins when you see them. That way you’ll have nice originals maybe a few less though, nice coins are spendy

 

I’m sorry I have a different opinion than some on the use of coin care and other acid based cleaners. Go to a show and ask a dealer that sells that crap if he would dip his personal coins I’ll bet he’d laugh in your face. He’d just buy nicer specimens. I’ll leave it lie. It’s just that everyone I know local that collects coins would NEVER USE THOSE PRODUCTS. It’s just unethical to do so around here in the Seattle area at least with the collectors I know. They just save up and buy better specimens. I wouldn’t even tell my friends I dipped for fear that I would loose respect in their eyes.

About me being a fly speck hey I did not disrespect ANYONE. Why dis me? I’ve been collecting coins since 1968 I think I know a bit. I’m just old school and a bit crabby. I don’t have all the book Knowledge others have but I’ve been in the numismatic trenches for a LONG time. Seen a lot of Lincolns

 

The vast majority of problem free coins that dealers have for sale have been conserved in some way. That's just the way it is. The ones that are done properly you would never know because it has been done in a way not to damage the coin...only to preserve it.

If you only want to own coins that have never been treated...I would suggest sticking with moderns straight from the mint.