Question for the Dippers

What do you think about the long term "market acceptability" of this practice? Properly dipped (conserved) silver coins are widely considered acceptable and have been for a long time (as far as I know). The same does not seem to be true for copper. Do you think as "we learn more" many of these red cents will lose their "market acceptability?"

I have honestly never seen a blast white Bust Half that didn't look really odd...something about that design needs the patina (at least to me). That being said, the idea of "never dipping" one seems like closed minded thinking. I'd rather have a dipped one than one being destroyed by end-stage oxidation.

 

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CamaroDMD, asked: "What do you think about the long term "market acceptability" of this practice? Properly dipped (conserved) silver coins are widely considered acceptable and have been for a long time (as far as I know). The same does not seem to be true for copper. Do you think as "we learn more" many of these red cents will lose their "market acceptability?"

As you must know, what I think does not matter. I'll bet many of these coins are being removed from the market one way or the other - IMO, mostly by crack-out attempts to upgrade.

CamaroDMD posted: "I have honestly never seen a blast white Bust Half that didn't look really odd...something about that design needs the patina (at least to me). That being said, the idea of "never dipping" one seems like closed minded thinking. I'd rather have a dipped one than one being destroyed by end-stage oxidation."

I have. Check out high-grade slabs in auctions and at shows.

 

Despite Doug's position, I don't buy the concept of "end stage oxidation is destructive" unless something other than a silver sulfide reaction is involved. Can you scrub it with your thumb and remove it? Yes. You can remove a few molecules of clean silver that way, too; you just don't see it until you've altered the character of the surface. Can you reverse it, even in end stage, so that it's all silver again?

Yes.

Doesn't sound destructive to me.

 

Ok. It’s your coin. But I do believe in it because I have seen it.

 

All tarnish should be removed every 50 years to save these historical artifacts for the children of tomorrow.

 

SuperDave, posted: "Despite Doug's position, I don't buy the concept of "end stage oxidation is destructive" unless something other than a silver sulfide reaction is involved. Can you scrub it with your thumb and remove it? Yes. You can remove a few molecules of clean silver that way, too; you just don't see it until you've altered the character of the surface. Can you reverse it, even in end stage, so that it's all silver again? Yes. Doesn't sound destructive to me."

OMG!

Folks, each of us have specialties. Some here may be Large cent experts. Some my be coin "doctors" who get their work passed all the time as natural! The best house painter in the world may even post on CT. Others may be photographers. When a guy that can take a pretty image of a coin, starts to tell the expert painter what's going on, it is not only it is like a destructive tin-pest corrosion eating away at the knowledge assembled by experts in their field.

@SuperDave I should remind you and all of us posting here that, in the big picture, no one cares which concepts we accept and which we don't. The important thing is to know the actual, experimentally verifiable, facts. Here is one
I think MAY sum up Doug's position and mine:

The reason someone "coined" the terms "end stage oxidation" is because that's what it is and it sounds much better than "The surface of you coin has been terminally destroyed forever by corrosion and nothing can restore it!"

In an attempt to prove his point, our "Ex-Pert" poster proves he knows absolutely nothing about what "end stage" oxidation actually is:

WARNING NOTHING IN THE FOLLOWING QUOTE IS TRUE:

"Can you scrub it with your thumb and remove it? Yes. You can remove a few molecules of clean silver that way, too; you just don't see it until you've altered the character of the surface. Can you reverse it, even in end stage, so that it's all silver again? Yes. Doesn't sound destructive to me."

 

I'm not doubting anything said about dipping copper coins as I am not a chemist. I would just like to known are you stating the coins were dipped before they started to tone or after toning was obvious on the coin, ie, red/brown, brown, etc. Either way the coin would have to be uncirculated (or MS if you prefer). If they were dipped how many of us on coin talk would love to know that secret?

 

I think the number would be right around that which dip silver. That was the whole reasoning behind starting this thread. All things being equal, dipping copper and dipping are the same ethically, etc. All things are not equal--nasty color issue with dipped copper. So you have to AT which is another step down the ethics ladder in most people's opinion or you have to figure out how to convert brown oxidation into red. I say concert because removing brown oxidation and replacing it with red sounds an awful lot like AT to me. I do not think red exists beneath brown. In fact I've taken a peak and all that is underneath brown is nasty

 

Dip silver coins if you must, but realize the luster will diminish every time you do it, but do NOT dip copper coins. Loss of luster is the least of your problems if you do.

NEVER use any acid dip on copper coins. It micropits the surface very quickly. The acid in the dip is the major problem. It dissolves native copper as well as toned copper patina.

Also, do not use sulfur ointment to "recolor" copper coins. Sulfur also etches (pits) the surface.

 

I have been all over this website and half dozen other ones. Never heard this claim before. Is this based on your research? It would be easy enough to use a microscope and observe this I imagine (I don't personally have one). Or is this second hand from some reliable source?

I think this should be made common knowledge in coin community if it is indeed true. An argument being made here is that copper coins can be restored to red and even get encapsulated. This micro-pitting is getting by the grading services or another non-dip process is being performed. Or it isn't really happening. What do you think halfcent1793?

 

How bout this micro putting business that affects copper and not silver???

 

Gotcha. Like I said I would think it would be pretty easy to test. Could dip a red unc copper--one you know has no micro pitting. Do you have micro pitting after?

 

halfcent1793, posted: "Dip silver coins if you must, but realize the luster will diminish every time you do it,..."

The first time I heard this nonsense was from the mouth of a Commemorative coin expert who was a guest speaker at a grading seminar in the 1980's. His contention was that if you put a light meter on a silver coin and took a reading and then dipped it, the reflection of its luster would diminish and read lower on the instrument! As soon as he left the class, our very knowledgeable professional instructor informed the class to forget what they just heard as it was absolute, uninformed, nonsense! Next, he praised the expertise of his invited guest and surmised that a cloud must have blocked some of the sunlight during the expert's second reading.

The next week, the instructor explained the difference between dipping coins by amateurs and PROPER dipping. The class did some tests. Bottom line: If a coin is dipped properly, no one can tell after one dip. No one can tell after two dips. No one could tell after three dips. Do you see where this is going? Sometime between many acid dips and the thousandth - when the coin and your fingers dissolve , its luster WILL BE diminished . How much and when depends on a number of variables. For example, you can take a gem DCAM Proof and leave it in a bowl of "Tarnex" for awhile and its luster will be diminished with one dip BUT that's not considered proper dipping.

@halfcent1793 properly cautions: "NEVER use any acid dip on copper coins. It micropits the surface very quickly. The acid in the dip is the major problem. It dissolves native copper as well as toned copper patina."

mrjason71, posted: "Gotcha. Like I said I would think it would be pretty easy to test. Could dip a red unc copper--one you know has no micro pitting. Do you have micro pitting after?"

How much power do you wish to use? See the point? Numismatists do not work at the atomic level of a coin's surface. I applaud your curiosity, but please don't complicate the thread as you'll drive yourself and others nuts. Yes, crank that Electron Microscope up, take before and after scans of the coin's surface and you'll prove @halfcents is correct. Then, we can determine how many dozen dips it takes to pit the surface enough to change the luster to a professional grader's eyes! Let's see, that test could be done at a cost of $$$ and take most of the day preparing the sample after each dip.

BTW, copper coins are being restored to "market acceptable red" and slabbed. It has been going on for decades. I believe that folks here are just arguing about the "numbers."

 

I just got a loupe (10X)

I'll have to give this a look: Before and after dipping of an uncirculated red copper. I see what you guys are saying; You cant really say pitting was caused by dipping a brown copper because the pitting may already be beneath the toning. Would be easy to blame the dip in that scenario.