Question for the Dippers

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Exactly. He's coming from the position that it's essentially impossible for copper not to turn and not to turn quickly, when someone takes that position they have to work backwards to explain the moderate to small amount of older red copper. The problem is just like you pointed out, if it were the case that they were overwhelmingly restored to be red they would be turning quickly back to rb or brown in their holders which the majority of them aren't

 

OK, I understand the differences now. The articles had to do with prevention of toning which for copper has proven basically impossible. Your explanation for all the red coins is that there are people out there who have figured out how to dip them.

Let me ask you this then...why wouldn't we seen more red coins then? There are plenty of MS brown coppers out there. With the relative price difference between a brown and a red coin...certainly there is money to be made, especially for the select few that apparently have been able to do it.

I understand that the more that appear the lower the price will be driven...but there is certainly money to be made there. You would think you would see more red than we do.

 

I honestly don't know...this is why I'm kinda playing both sides of it. Assume for a moment that a secret method to dip coppers back to red exists. Also assume that much like a silver coin...they are prone to retoning but not to a greater extent than when the coin was new.

We know how to minimize the toning of our coins...even our copper coins through proper storage methods. I suppose one could make the argument that a freshly dipped old copper isn't anymore reactive than a new one.

Oh, and I have seen slabs labeled RD where the coins have turned. Not tons of them...but I have seen some.

Personally, I avoid older coins with RD on the label because I don't trust that they will remain that way and I don't want to pay the premium for them only to see it disappear.

 

I’ve never disagreed that on certain coins some people probably could get them back to being red. Where I strongly disagree is that it’s responsible for the majority or even wide spread or that a cent has to turn in a century or two. There’s just not enough older red coins when you elimate lincolns to suggest that it’s wide spread and a lot of those ms brown and rb coins would be getting it done all the time given how much value they would pick up.

I’ve seen some of the reds turn too, whether that was from storage/location or a dip we will probably never know.

I avoid older red indians and older too mostly because of the cost, some I just couldn’t afford and the others for the money most of them take id rather put that into series I like a lot more. Even if they were my favorite I can think of several states and parts of the country I’d avoid them just from the climate

 

I honestly don't know. What I do know is that quite a few older Lincoln cents (1930s and older) have survived and are graded red. That makes me wonder. But, I honestly don't know. That's mainly why I was asking questions...trying to pick the brains of some of the more experienced folks here.

I sorta consider @GDJMSP my "Coin Yoda." Sometime he's confusing and might talk in riddles...and sometimes we don't always agree. But, I always learn something.

 

The distribution for the Lincoln’s from 1909-30 looks exactly how I’d expect it. The most red ones are from the first year especially the VDB which makes sense since they were saved in large quantities being the new design. After that red becomes scare again for the most part till the late 20s and then production starts getting dramatically increased from the 30s on.

That’s just in the population reports too where red is far more likely to be submitted and brown just isn’t worth the cost in a lot of grades.

The 22 no D is a great example though of recoloring not being as widespread as it’s being presented. PCGS has two ms rd coins for the 22 no d. Taking the rb or brown ones and turning them red would be a huge windfall profit yet it hasn’t happened which tells me even if they know how it’s not that easy or it only works when they find the right coin. A population distribution like the no D has where over 99 percent of the graded ones are brown are the extact types of distributions they would be heavily targeting for maximium profit.

 

That makes complete sense to me.

It would be interesting to travel back in time and see a 1922 No D fresh off the die. I wonder how the luster on those coins actually looked. With the dies being as worn as they were...I wonder if the luster was even that pronounced. You are right, this would be a coin ripe for profit it a BN could be dipped into a RD. I just wonder if they ever had the luster...which could explain the numbers IF someone is dipping them somehow.

 

That would be interesting to see it right off the machine.

IF someone is actively dipping them they’re either ruining a lot of them or being extremely selective. For PCGS the rd population is 5 in any grade (and one might be a clerical error), 16 for rb in any grade, and 5,341 brown in any grade. IF dipping was happening on that date it’s certainly not widespread.

 

I wonder how many older coppers end up in details slabs due to questionable red color.

 

I should have also mentioned it earlier when TPGs not guaranteeing the color was brought up, but really when you think about it that's even more evidence it isn't that easy. One of the things they'll do on guarantee resubmissions is conserve the coin if they can improve it to match what it initially was. If changing it back to red was no big deal for those who know they could easily just conserve all the red copper that turns or you could send them brown/rb for conservation and have them turn them all red.

Probably a decent amount where most are likely cracked out and spent or sold raw.

 

Thanks, and props to you.

@TheFinn, finally answered my question and posted some very interesting hearsay about what he claimed is going on at the TPGS's:

@TheFinn replied: "I don't [work at a TPGS], buddy, but as a dealer I have talked to a lot of people that work at them. (two, three, a dozen? And exactly which of them? PCGS, NGC, ICG, or ANACS?) With all of the doctoring done by submitters, this is something they have done to remove [requested and paid for conservation is NOT what you implied or wrote.] or reveal it. [?] Say hello to jimminy buddy."

I shall post a discussion on the PCGS forum to see what they say about your post and make four telephone calls next week. The Cricket is in a Fairy Tale so I'll be saying hello to Hall, Montgomery, Campbell, and Paul thank you very much. I should think that each of them and all of us on CT would want to know if the "people who work for them [TPGS]" are putting coins in chemicals without their owner's permission.

 

CamaroDMD, posted: "I sorta consider @GDJMSP my "Coin Yoda." Sometime he's confusing and might talk in riddles...and sometimes we don't always agree. But, I always learn something.""

Oh, come on! Older much Doug is.

 

Hahahahaha.

 

I had the impression that the luster would be more pronounced, because the flow lines would be deeper and better-established...?

 

About 25k red Indians is not a large percentage of a series that went on for 50 years even from the numbers you presented that are tailor made to show the highest possible percentage of red. There's 10s of millions of brown ones that haven't been graded without even going over the aspects of what is most likely to be graded again. .

No comment you've made demonstrates more than this one that you are working backwards from a conclusion trying to make date fit what you want it too. You can't possibly believe there are more red Lincolns Wheats than brown

 

Again do you honestly believe there are more red Lincoln Wheats than brown ones in existence