Message:

<p>[QUOTE=&quot;+VGO.DVCKS, post: 7534309, member: 110504&quot;]@dlsrq, many thanks for both of your last posts, and the demonstrably intelligent squinting-at-the-screen that you had to resort to in the process.&nbsp; If any of what follows smells like condescension, please receive my cordial apologies.&nbsp; At certain points, I was making a token effort to play catch-up with the level of acquaintance with any of this that other people than you, me or [USER=117018]@Henry112345[/USER] might have.</p><p><br /></p><p>Regarding your first post, Yes, where genealogy is concerned, I often swear by this same kind of local history, c. late Victorian -early Edwardian (that&#039;s in reference to Edward VIII --we&#039;re talking about historiography, not history), and have to just sit back and admire the sources&#039; fluency in the Latin primary sources.&nbsp; (Even if the sources&#039; own Latin was less than stellar, by the standards of a typical British &#039;Classical Education.&#039;&nbsp; For which I might kill ...well, maybe something discetely bigger than a fly.)</p><p><br /></p><p>But I still have to read your first entry, from 1297, as being too late to be about this Robert of Basing.&nbsp; ...Still predicated on the seal matrix itself, which, on stylistic grounds (especially the lettering), is still looking pretty emphatically earlier 13th century.&nbsp; In light of your triangulation of the chronology with the geography (Hampshire), I&#039;m having to guess that this was likely a generationally recent descendant who entered the clergy.&nbsp; This was routine in aristocratic families; younger sons --even namesakes-- were farmed out to the clergy, to keep the aggregate inheritance as intact as possible.&nbsp; Happened all the time, in medieval France no less than in what was still, for the operant demographic, Anglo-Norman England.</p><p>Your citation of the Rolls of the eyre as of 1246 seriously calls for quotation.</p><p><b>289</b>. Item terre que fuerunt Willelmi Thurstan quas dominus rex dedit Henrico de Burgo et postea Thome de Blunville et postea Radulfo Parmentario. Idem vero Radulfus uxorem suam de terris illis dotavit et mortuo illo Radulfo, uxor eius illas tenuit usque ad gwerram. Et postea Isabella comitissa Glovernie quandam partem terrarum illarum que fuerunt de feodo suo in manum suam cepit et tenuit. Postea vero Gilbertus de Clara comes Glovernie de illa feoffavit Robertum de Basinge, qui illam tenuit usque ad ultimum iter justiciariorum. Modo autem Reginaldus de Bungeye et Radulfus de Ely illam tenent. Aliquas vero terras dicti Willelmi, que non sunt de feodo comitis Glovernie, tenent modo canonici Sancti Pauli et Walterus Buk, per uxorem suam que fuit filia Andree Nevelun et quandam sopam tenet Robertus Auguillun per uxorem suam que scopa est in Westchepe, et venit filia Radulfi Steperang et profert cartam domini regis Johannis.</p><p><br /></p><p>Item the lands which belonged to William Thurstan which the king gave to Henry de Burgh and after to Thomas de Blunville and afterwards to Ralph the Parmenter; the same Ralph endowed his wife with them, and on his death, his wife held them until the war, and afterwards Isabel countess of Gloucester took into her hand and held part of those lands which were of her fee, and afterwards Gilbert de Clare earl of Gloucester enfeoffed therewith Robert of Basing, who held them at the last eyre of the justices. Now however Reginald of Bungay and Ralph of Ely hold them but other lands of the same William which are not of the fee of the earl of Gloucester are now held by the canons of St. Paul&#039;s and Walter Buk&#039; who holds in right of his wife who was the daughter of Andrew Nevelun and Robert Auguillun holds a shop in right of his wife, which shop is in Westcheap, and the daughter of Ralph Steperang comes and proffers a charter of King John.</p><p><br /></p><p>This is sounding a lot like the Robert of Basing who [USER=117018]@Henry112345[/USER] and I <i>think </i>(...still) is the likeliest candidate for the seal.</p><p>Right, at one point earlier in this thread, I was going on about how, among the English aristocracy, individual manors were scattered all over the country, among the upper as well as the lower aristocracy. ...Right, very intentionally, from the time that William I started allotting them, effectively from the ground up.&nbsp; --In this capacity, he had a clean slate to start from (conspicuously unlike the Capetians ever had in France), and he Ran with it!&nbsp; The sheer geographic diversity of the titles /surnames, from Ely (in Cambridgeshire) to Bungay (in Norfolk) to Gloucestershire (<i>or</i> Clare, in Suffolk), serves to underscore this.&nbsp; If you go by the counties (/shires --yeah, they&#039;re effectively interchangable) themselves, none of them was within easy earshot of Hampshire.&nbsp; ...If I had one favorite example of the phenomenon, it would have to be the Warrenne earls of Surrey (deep in the south of the country), who also held substantial property in Yorkshire (including Conisbrough, a favorite castle, going back to the late 12th century), not far from the Scottish border.[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>

Your name or email address:

Do you already have an account?

• No, create an account now.
• Yes, my password is:
• Forgot your password?

Stay logged in