Question about grading standards for Proof Morgans

Why are cleaned proof Morgans with excessive hairlines generally not marked details but instead just knocked down the grade scale instead?

“Proof is a method of manufacture and not a condition.”​

Even mildly cleaned business strikes are always marked details by TPGs, whereas proof strikes just get knocked down on the grading scale. Shouldn't the "details" standard be consistent for TPGs? They are very strict with business strikes, and very lenient with proofs. That makes no sense to me. There is clear inconsistency between how they grade cleaned business strikes vs. proof strikes. Why do they do this?

Here is a good example:

Look at the hairlines in those fields. Harshly cleaned.

 

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the old cabinet friction id, and evaluating with 5x, vs. 13 millionx photo. (a little exaggeration there, i admit

 

Those are polish marks coming from the die - Different than lines created from cleaning.
Looks like the scrapes on the coin is why it got a 61 - The star for the almost cameo appearance

 

Huh?

 

I seriously doubt those are die polish lines, not on a proof die.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:
1) They don't look raised, but dug in
2) They run in subtly different directions and criss-cross. Die polish marks generally run same direction
3) They don't run across the whole field. They seem to cut off

 

I'm in the die polish lines camp. I see none on the bust.

 

The Proof IS NOT HARSHLY CLEANED. IMO, most collectors have not seen enough coins to evolve their PERSONAL standards for the appearance of the different degrees of cleaning.

jgrinz, posted: "Those are polish marks coming from the die - Different than lines created from cleaning. Looks like the scrapes on the coin is why it got a 61 - The star for the almost cameo appearance."

I disagree with this post. IMO, the hairlines (note the subtle different directions) are from improper cleaning/handling. The coin is impaired and got its low grade for continuous HLNS over its entire surface. Additionally there is nothing on this coin that would qualify as a "scrape." Many coins that should not be straight graded are. This is an example. It is an attractive IMPAIRED Proof.

Since Proofs are graded chiefly by spots and hlns (hairlines) because they are usually not all banged up, that is probably the reason they are not detailed when those imperfections are present. It would be like "detailing" an MS coin for bagmarks.

 

Proofs that were stored in coin cabinets tend to get hairlines because velvet is not nearly as soft as it might seem to be. Opening and closing the drawers can cause the coins to shift which can result in hairlines. If you do that over 100 year period, the marks can mount up.

The OP coin has been dipped and is a bit cloudy as a result. It has some like handling marks made more visible by the mirrored Proof surface. I think that the grade is correct.

 

Thanks for the reply. My point is if this were a business strike it would no doubt get a details grade due to the cleaning. I don’t get why the standards are lowered or different for proofs. There is no consistency there.

if a coin has been cleaned, harshly or lightly, it should receive a details grade. The strike type shouldn’t matter.

 

Hairlines are much more noticeable on Proofs than they are on business strikes. It also easier to hairline a Proof than a business strike.

The problems with most Proofs are caused by numismatic storage devices, too much dipping and the environment. You can hairline a Proof, if you are not careful, with a Capital Plastics holder. If you are too lazy and have one screw in the holder and slide the top layer of the plastic window over the coin, you can hairline it. If the coin rattles in the holder, you can get hairlines. That's why you avoid handling Proofs and why a good mint package or a slab are the best storage devices.

 

DMPL_dingo, posted: "My point is if this were a business strike it would no doubt get a details grade due to the cleaning. I don’t get why the standards are lowered or different for proofs. There is no consistency there. if a coin has been cleaned, harshly or lightly, it should receive a details grade. The strike type shouldn’t matter."

What you are saying makes sense.

However, I think this is the answer to your question:

Since Proofs are graded chiefly by spots and hairlines (which may not be considered as "problems" on proofs) that is probably the reason they are not detailed when those imperfections are present. It would be like "detailing" an MS coin for bagmarks, weak strike, an low luster.

 

If you were grading the coin, what would you have rated it?

 

Me: PR-60 Details Cleaned. However, I'm not the finalizer so depending on what it looks like it may have gone out also straight graded as PR-61 but no star. IMO, 61 is a fair grade.

 

There is also the rarity factor. The rarer the coin, the more likely the TPG will put it in a problem free slab.

This coin in MS was minted in the millions and is extremely plentiful and inexpensive in low MS grades. There is no reason for a TPG to make an allowance for a hairlined example. The proof has a mintage around 1300 and any example sells for $2K+.

 

We can’t see the reverse. The obverse is Cam. If the reverse is also Cam, it should get it. If not, maybe that’s why they gave it the star.

 

The eagle's breast and parts of the wings are not fully cameo, but the rest of the coin is. That's likely why it got the Star.

Based on the NGC pic, the coin is also very heavily hairlined, much more so than the DLRC pic used here shows.

 

Proofs don't get bagmarked, they get hairlined, and much more obviously than business strikes do. If collectors rejected every proof with a hairline patch as a problem coin, then everything under PR65 would be a problem coin, yet that is not the case. Grades like PR60 and 61 and borderline problem coins, just like MS60 is.

 

How is MS60 a borderline problem coin? It just indicates the amount of wear. It has nothing to do with whether it’s been cleaned or not.

Which brings me to my original point - business strikes that are cleaned receive details grades, while proof coins just get docked points on the scale.

Also, PL/DMPL business strikes do get easily hairlined.

 

In Bowers' RED BOOK on Morgans....he mentions that the Proofs sometimes got accidentally cleaned (even in museums).