Question about Daniel Carr offerings

Perhaps. But they probably wouldn't pay much. And they might just try and sell them back to somebody in the USA.

PS: Here is my "Panda":

 

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But would it be? The statutes only apply to our coins correct? Or if you attempt to defraud in this country? We are a sovereign nation too, surely it would be legal to manufacture them and export them as it is in China. Only the seller in China would be liable in theory.

 

You're tempting me again lol.

 

I misunderstood your original question. Here is what the statute, 18 U.S.C. 485, says:

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar ... in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States...

So no, based on the text of the statute, I do not think you could counterfeit Chinese pandas (which are current Chinese money) and sell them to the Chinese.

 

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Hmmm, well Chinese coins don't circulate. How about rare Chinese coins or the fantasy issue I linked too? Or Chinese currency that does not circulate in the U.S?

 

Chinese Pandas are not "current in the United States", nor are they "in actual use and circulation as money within the United States."

 

Sorry, they sold out in 2012 (issue price $85, 208 minted). They typically sell for about $300 now. There is currently a true auction for one on eBay (I don't know the seller, search for "Carr Panda").

 

I agree that Chinese coins don't circulate and are not current money of the United States. I have not looked at case law interpreting the phrase "current in the United States." Does "in the United States" modify and refer to "current" or "[w]hoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits?" There must be some reason for the mention of foreign coinage in the statute because no foreign coin has legal tender status/circulates in the United States or else it would render that language nugatory. Courts will only interpret language as superfluous only if absolutely necessary and if it cannot give it another reasonable construction. I'm sure there is some case law out there, but I don't care to look it up.

 

18 USC 485 was enacted prior to 1857 when foreign coins, such as the Spanish Milled Dollar (8 Reals) circulated as "current" legal-tender money in the United States. Congress did not want there to be counterfeiting of foreign coins when those coins openly circulated legally in the United States. The Coinage Act of 1857 negated the legal tender status of foreign coins in the Unites States: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coinage_Act_of_1857

The US Mint, in their "Mutilated Coin Redemption Program", refers to "current" coins as bronze and zinc small cents, nickels, copper-nickel clad dimes, quarters, halfs, small dollars (SBA), large dollars (Ike), and small "golden" dollars. Basically anything that can be found in circulation with a little effort. These can be redeemed in bulk, by weight, when separated by size and denomination. The US Mint calls silver coins "uncurrent" and suggests they be taken to a coin dealer or scrap metal dealer.

 

There is, to give State and the highest levels leeway to enforce when they deem politically suitable. Won't get any further into politics but the bottom line on that question is it will all depend on the politics. We will not voluntarily do it

 

It does give some food for thought. Perhaps it is covered under international law. But then if it is, why does China get away with it?

 

I don't doubt that the law will change to suit whoever controls it, but the question is "legally now" as the laws stand could it be done.

 

It is true that foreign coins circulated until 1857, but Congress has modified the language in that statute several times since then including in 1877 and 1948 I believe. The last time it was modified was in 1965. The failure to delete that provision seems meaningful, but again, I haven't taken the time to bother to look up the case law.

 

Chinese law stipulates that it is ok to make unmarked replicas of any coin dated prior to 1949 (this illustrates that the communist government cares little about what came before they took power in China in 1949).

This is one reason why there are some ridiculous pieces out there such as the base-metal [1986] Statue of Liberty commemorative dollar with a "1906" date on it.
1986 is too new to pass Chinese law, but "1906" is ok.

 

Curiously, the Chinese highest value coins seem to be fantasy pieces. I have no idea why...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Very-rare-C...b12d732&pid=100574&rk=1&rkt=4&sd=172442766668

 

The Chinese "fantasy" coins (the ones that aren't modern reproductions) are similar to pattern coins. Some were privately made and some others were made at the Philadelphia Mint.

 

I wonder if there are any Chinese lawyers out there that speak English and can tell us what the state of criminal counterfeiting (of money and otherwise) is in China. I would also be interested in the intellectual property law aspects as well for U.S. coin designs that are copyrighted (like the obverse of the Sacagawea Dollar). That would be a very interesting topic.

 

So according to Chinese law, you could copy this coin without marking it as it is prior to 1949. It may well be legal to copy it here too if our laws allow it. Perhaps this is a market niche lol.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Recomm...511239?hash=item5439d4f7c7:g:d7gAAOSwpDdVHwRw

 

I agree, it is interesting to note that the older Chinese coins are cool. I have to stop looking now as it just feeds my addiction lol.

Perhaps someone else can help with the U.S. Law on counterfeiting foreign coins.