PVC Flips in Red 2x2 Boxes

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by SorenCoins, Dec 28, 2021.

  1. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Hello everyone,

    I am in the process of reorganizing my foreign coins. I have a bunch of Saflips that I am going to put in some of those red 2x2 boxes like these:
    2E5FA62F-C27D-4EBF-BD35-88CE5D5023CA.jpeg
    The 2x2 boxes I have a currently holding flips with PVC flips, and I was wondering if that means I should not be storing my Saflips in there. I have hears that there is a gaseous component of the PVC flips that causes damage and that it stays in whatever the flips are near. So, I was wondering if this could have stayed in the boxes and if I should be only using unused red 2x2 boxes. Thank you all, I appreciate whatever input you may have!
     
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  3. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    Unless you see discoloration in the boxes, I wouldn't think there would be a concern. PVC plasticizer residue is transferred by physical contact and I think the partial pressure of the decomposition products would be negligible at best. If you're really worried, you may want to leave them open to air out for a day or two. Can't hurt. Just my thoughts
     
    MIGuy likes this.
  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    The contamination from PVC flips is from the plasticizer that is used to keep them soft. It oozes out over the years... Now, the gas you are referring to is HCl which can come from the decomposition of the PVC over time and can collect in the plasticizer and discolor it. Air the boxes out a couple of days and you should have no problem.
     
  5. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Sorry, but physical contact has nothing to do with anything - not even when it's a coin inside a PVC flip. In every case, it is the gasses the PVC flips put off that do the damage.

    As the PVC flips decay, and just like everything else they begin to decay the moment after they are made, they put off gasses. It is this gas that settles on the coins, and the inside of boxes the flips are stored in, and it deposits the PVC softening agent residue where it then condenses on the coins and the inside of the boxes.

    In other words the PVC softening agent doesn't leak out of the flip in liquid form and get deposited on whatever the flip happens to be touching. It leaks out in gaseous form and gets on everything that is even nearby the flip ! It doesn't have to be touching anything at all !

    To put it another way, if you have safe, or any kind of closed container, and any number of PVC flips inside that safe or closed container, the gas put off by the flips gets deposited on everything inside the safe or closed container !

    So, to answer your question -

    I sure wouldn't use 'em if it were me. Think about it, the cardboard is porous, it soaks stuff up in other words, including the harmful PVC residue that has been deposited and condensed inside the boxes. So even of you were to wipe the boxes down, you're not gonna get it all off or out of the cardboard.

    If the boxes were made of hard inert plastic, yeah could probably clean those and safely reuse them. But cardboard ? Not in years. I'd throw 'em away if it were me.
     
    Mr.Q, imrich, Cliff Reuter and 3 others like this.
  6. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    I haven't found any data on the partial pressures of the decomposition products of the plasticizers, but I don't believe it is high based on 35 years of dealing with PVC removal (I used to use Freon 113 from the chem lab in college) . In any case, the residue has to react with moisture and warmth to form the damaging HCl. If the residue is in the cardboard and the moisture and environment are right, I would think the HCl would do a number on the cardboard.

    Nothing wrong with being cautious, but I don't see any science or anything in my experience that says this is a high risk situation. It's just a matter of opinion until somebody finds the partial pressure data. I'll agree to disagree until that time
     
  7. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    no no no no no no no

    Yes, Virginia...uh...Doug, the softening agent DOES leak out of the flip in liquid form! The gas from the decomposition is HCl (hydrogen chloride) which, when dissolved in water we call hydrochloric acid. Gases really don't "settle" on anything, they diffuse all over the place unless something dissolves them and holds them in one place. In this case the plasticizer (dioctyl phthalate) does exude out of old, decaying plasticized PVC. If the coin has slime on it (plasticizer) the HCl gas can go into the plasticizer and be held against the coin, causing it (the coin) to decompose.
     
  8. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    Looks like somebody paid attention to their organic chemistry. :D
     
    Cliff Reuter, -jeffB and Kentucky like this.
  9. desertgem

    desertgem Senior Errer Collecktor

    He taught it I believe. It's a wonder that chemists age at all. Same for Doug after all the solvents he used. We are just a Hi Chem bunch of people :) I've just got to go to sleep. Almost ready to teach Microbiology 5 weeks ,5 days a week , 6 1/2 hrs a day by ZOOM! I will not be on much until Feb, Doug!!
     
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Tell ya what Carl, you take some PVC flips, a half dozen or so, and you put them inside a, ehhh, small closed container like a small Tupperware one, set 'em on one side. On the other side, not touching the flips, you put in 3 or 4 coins from your pocket change. Then you just sit that container aside for 6 months or so.

    After that time, you open it up, and test the surface of the coins, you know what tests to do and how to do it/them. And I'll bet ya there's PVC residue on them - even though the flips were never touching the coins. And then you come back and try to tell me it was not because gas got deposited on the coins.

    Or, you could short cut the whole process and explain to me how and why coins - inside an album that had vinyl covers on it, the covers of which could in no way come into direct contact with the coins - got PVC reside on them. And this has happened literally thousands of times to collectors over the years.

    If that wasn't caused by gas being put off by the vinyl - what was it ? Because there sure wasn't any direct contact that could put liquid on them.
     
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  11. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Baloney........
     
  12. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    I respect your expertise and knowledge, but can't accept this. Fact: the plasticizer is dioctyl phthalate (DOP) Fact: DOP is about as volatile as motor oil Fact: the gas from the decomposition of PVC is hydrogen chloride which can be corrosive, but will not deposit on a surface to make a residue
     
    Mr.Q, Bob Evancho and Oldhoopster like this.
  13. 1stSgt22

    1stSgt22 I'm just me!

    @SorenCoins In your original post you stated the flips in the boxes now are PVC flips! How do you know for sure the flips in the boxes now are PVC? Are any of the coins in these flips showing signs of PVC damage? I think further investigation may be in order unless you have already been able to verify the flips are PVC! If you have verified that I should be ignored again!!!!;);)
     
  14. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Unh huh - and, according to science, gold coins don't tone either :rolleyes:

    I respect your knowledge as well Carl, but when you see things happen with your own eyes, and have seen them happen numerous times, well it's gets to be pretty dang hard not to believe it.

    Try the test I described, see it with YOUR own eyes.
     
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  15. Oldhoopster

    Oldhoopster Member of the ANA since 1982

    According to science, gold does not tone. However, gold alloys used to make coins could tone.

    I'm not discounting your observations, but couldn't the residue come from previous incomplete removal or cross contamination from handling?

    Based on @Kentucky career as a PhD chemist, I tend to trust his answer about the the plasticizer decomposition products being viscous. That also matches my observations. As I said previously, I'll have to agree to disagree on this. If the observations don't match the science, especially in an uncontrolled environment, it's usually the observation that needs refined, not the science that's wrong.
     
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  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I agree 100% that they become viscous - but only after they were released from the flips in gas form. And I'm far from being the only person that agrees with this - it has been the standard explanation for decades.

    In other words, what we disagree on is the residue leaking out of the flips in liquid form.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  17. masterswimmer

    masterswimmer A Caretaker, can't take it with me

    Just because something has been done for decades doesn't mean it is beyond question.

    All of the diorama's I made in grade school that included Pluto as a planet are now all proven to be wrong.

    I'm not qualified to respond to the chemical questions posed here. Just because 'that's the way we've done it for decades' is an answer/response, I have to comment. That response was weak and ineffectual in an argument.
     
  18. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Sigh.....

    Never admit nuttin' that obfuscates a self-stated position.
     
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  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    There's no way I can prove anything to anybody with words. But anybody can do the test I described themselves, and see the results themselves. And once ya see it with your own eyes - it's pretty hard to say it can't and doesn't happen.

    And I'm not disputing the chemistry at all. The gas itself is harmless, until it mixes with the humidity in the air. Only then does it turn into acid that harms coins. But that's all it takes, the humidity in the air. And once it mixes with the humidity in the air, that's when it condenses on anything it touches.

    And I don't think there's anybody, anywhere, who's going to dispute that humidity in the air, which is in the form of a gas, condenses on literally anything and everything.
     
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  20. charley

    charley Well-Known Member


    Quoted for updated emphasis.
     
    Kentucky likes this.
  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    And a bullet fired towards your head is harmless until it enters your skull. I'm not sure I have any PVC flips, but I'll look around.
     
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