Ptolemaic AR Tetradrachm

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by SorenCoins, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Hey there guys! I picked up this tetradrachm featuring King Ptolemy I on the obverse and an eagle (standing on lightning bolt I believe) on the reverse. I can not for the life of me ID it though! As I am far from an expert, in fact this is my first tetradrachm-- well first silver greek coin at all!

    IMG_2539.JPG IMG_2540.JPG

    I hope you guys know better than me! ;)


    Soren.
     
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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    It's from a couple hundred years later than Ptolemy I.

    https://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=383033

    [​IMG]

    PTOLEMAIC KINGS of EGYPT. Kleopatra III & Ptolemy IX Soter II (Lathyros). 117/6-108/7 BC. AR Tetradrachm (27mm, 14.34 g, 12h). Alexandreia mint. Dated RY 1 (117/6 BC). Diademed head of Ptolemy I right, aegis around neck / Eagle standing left on thunderbolt; LA (date) to left, ΠA to right. Svoronos 1659; Olivier 4783–807; SNG Copenhagen 347; DCA 60. VF.
     
  4. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Traditional listings give the ID of the portrait as Ptolemy I but the faces do change over the years so I am unclear on how the experts decided that the intent was to show the founder of the dynasty rather than the then current king. Below is one attributed to Ptolemy I himself. He was a bit distinctive in face. Perhaps the coin of P IX was intended to show us what P I looked like before he 'used' his face so much???
    g92460b00482lg.jpg
     
  5. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I have wondered the same thing but haven't investigated. Maybe there are contemporary carved busts which are known with greater certainty to be later (non-Ptolemy I) kings and which do not resemble the coins of Ptolemy I, so they concluded that the portraits on later coins were an idealized or stylized version of the original Ptolemy?
     
  6. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    Nice pick-up. I also have trouble differentiating between the Ptolemies. What I find interesting is that when Egypt became a Roman province (and an exclusive domain of the emperor) they stopped striking coins in good silver and thus we have the whole line of Imperial issues in billion with debasement that gets worse over time.
     
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  7. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I think the debasement of Egyptian tetradrachms in Roman times makes sense when you consider that Egypt was a closed monetary system and the "private property" of the emperor... why waste his good silver?
     
  8. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    It's also interesting to look at the current exchange rate of the Egyptian pound to the dollar - six cents or roughly 17 pounds to the dollar. It's a currency that floats against the dollar. As a result if you visit the country you have tremendous purchasing power as a lot of common things - fava beans for fuul, bread, etc. are subsidized by the government. In a way it's still a closed system. When I visited it was 5.5 pounds to the dollar. Here's a newish successor to the tetradrachm...

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Al Kowsky

    Al Kowsky Well-Known Member

    I sold the example pictured below at a Heritage auction about seven years ago. Ptolemy VI, 180-145 BC, struck at the Aradus Mint (Year 92, 168/7 BC) 27 mm, 13.93 gm. Despite a die break in the center of the obverse & an off-center reverse it's a handsome coin.

    100_0506 (2).JPG
    100_0508 (2).JPG
     
  10. Svarog

    Svarog Well-Known Member

    7A400B0A-EDEF-4DC4-ACB1-B8FD9E3270F7.jpeg F79A25D2-8634-455E-BF7D-1A9FA2DAA247.jpeg 5003EC80-0E70-463A-A5C1-91CC5CBF7613.jpeg
    Here are few of my favorites
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2019
  11. Bert Gedin

    Bert Gedin Well-Known Member

    A few general bits, that may have very little to do with the Coin. Ptolomy I was a top general of Alexander, and a close associate, dare one say "friend" ? He became ruler of Egypyt, first of his family, and was also "Greek". Cleopatra VII, the famous one, was thus of Greek origin, and is often said to be the last pharaoh of Egypt. Before she, allegedly committed suicide, having lost against a Roman naval invasion, she had been very close to Mark Anthony, and even Julius Caesar. In those yonder days, Alexandria was the Capital, and Cleopatra is thought be buried somewhere thereabouts. :bookworm:
     
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  12. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    I know what you and posters write about the difference among the Ptolemies. They are very subtle. Except for the first Ptolemy, who issued an early tetradrachma based on the heavier Attic scale, all of their coins look pretty and weigh much alike to me. The letters Pi and Alpha might stand for the mint of Paphos but by the time of Cleopatra VII (THE Cleopatra) stood for the number 80 on bronze pieces for 80 drachmai. In what looks like the letter L and A, the L is a shorthand version E and stands for "Etous", the year, while alpha is the number one. So whichever Ptolemy this is, this coin was issued in the first year of his reign. Sometimes, with a high regnal year, one can establish which Ptolemy it is as not too many Ptolemies had long reigns before they were offed by ambitious family members. As it was the life expectancy of a Ptolemy was about as long as that of Third Century AD Roman emperors, bad risks for life insurance companies.

    The coins posted here are of Ptolemy II, which can be dated to just after ca. 275 BC because of the small Gallic shield, placed on coins of Ptolemy II to commemorate a victory over an invading army of Gauls. IMG_0944[3563]Ptolemies obv.jpg IMG_0945[3567]Ptolemies rev.jpg The next coin is of Ptolemy VI, the year Beta of his reign, the third coin is of Ptolemy XII, the father of Cleopatra VII, who had two reigns and who had a high regnal year of Kappa Theta or 28. It can be pretty complicated and confusing collecting tetradrachmas of the Ptolemaic kings of Egypt.
     
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  13. kevin McGonigal

    kevin McGonigal Well-Known Member

    In addition to the Ptolemies above that I offered, there is a Ptolemy I, the cousin of Alexander the Great, who acquired Egypt in the shakeup of the Successor States. His first coinage was a continuation of that of Alexander so that at first Ptolemy issued coins resembling those of Alexander and on the Attic scale of ca. 17 grams. Later he started issuing coins of his own design IMG_0948[3575]Ptl I obv.jpg IMG_0947[3571]ptl I rev.jpg on a reduced Phoenician scale of ca. 14 grams. As you can see on the above tetradrachma of Ptolemy II in the previous post there is a banker's mark as these coins were sometimes plated fourres of somebody. The one pictured here is obviously a fourre with little silver plating remaining. On the reverse, showing Athena Promachos , there is a bit more silver plate remaining.
     
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  14. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Wow! That was fast! Thanks very much for this ID. It was kind of odd, because if I remember correctly, when I was trying to ID it on WildWinds, I found multiple listings that looked identical. Some for Ptolemy IX some for Ptolemy XI and maybe some for Ptolemy X. If they minted identical coins, how can they be differentiated? Or maybe I'm missing something due to my obvious lack of knowledge on ancient coins.
     
  15. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Yeah it's interesting. From seeing around trying to ID this I've seen the faces change but not all that much to be honest. By "used his face so much," I am unsure what you mean.
     
  16. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Oh that's certainly possible I suppose.
     
  17. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Oh interesting. This coin though is from Greek-Egypt right? Or is it Roman-Egypt. I guess I don't know. I did not know they began debasing the silver. but @TIF makes a good point.
     
  18. SorenCoins

    SorenCoins Well-Known Member

    Very nice coins both of you. They are very beautiful indeed!

    Well, that's certainly some fascinating history. I don't know how you guys know all this and so much more about these coins and their backgrounds! It's so hard to find some information and retain as you all do.
    Okay, so that's interesting! I thought that the Pi and Alpha were the mintmark but even knowing that I couldn't figure out which. But maybe I guess they aren't? This coin isn't bronze though so maybe it is. I also suspected the L and A to be year, I watched a presentation on that at one time but had forgotten how to decipher it. By that can't we determine what years the coin was made and then the emperor? Cool coins as well.
     
  19. ancient coin hunter

    ancient coin hunter 3rd Century Usurper

    The coin is from the Greco-Egyptian period when the Ptolemies ruled. The Romans came after when Octavian defeated the forces of Cleopatra and Mark Antony.

    Then Octavian (Augustus) started issuing the coins of Roman Egypt at the Alexandria mint.
     
  20. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    Guess this Tetradrachm is also Ptolemy I, minted in Alexandria ca. 309 BC:

    15.65 g, 26 mm
    Ref.: Svoronos no. 146, pl. 5a, 7; SNG Copenhagen 18; BMC 21

    Ob.: Head of deified Alexander to r. wearing diadem and elephant skin headdress, aegis around neck, horn of Ammon on his forehead
    Rev.: AΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ Athena Alkidemos advancing r., hurling spear with her right hand and with shield over her extended left arm; to right, monogram ΑI and monogram ΔΟΦ above eagle with closed wings standing on thunderbolt. Monogram in left field
    upload_2019-6-21_15-10-11.png upload_2019-6-21_15-10-43.png
     
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  21. cmezner

    cmezner do ut des Supporter

    I am just reading a free Ebook
    The Numismatic Chronicle, and Journal of the Numismatic Society
    at https://books.google.com/books?id=QatEAQAAMAAJ

    If I understand correctly, these tetradrachms were struck by Ptolemy I (son of Lagus) in memory of Alexander the younger, first king of Egypt, when Alexander the younger died.

    After an interregnum of seven years from his father’s death, the young Alexander Ægus, son of Roxana (an Eastern princess) and Alexander the Great, was recognized as the first king of Egypt, but always under the tutelage of Ptolemy, who continued governing the Kingdom as before. The tetradrachms and drachms of this series have on the obverse the head of Alexander the Great not covered with the lion’s skin, but with that of an elephant, the symbol of Alexandria. The reverse bears the legend AΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ and Pallas, a divinity especially venerated by the family of Alexander. In the field on all these coins, may be seen an eagle standing, the symbol of the Lagid family. By placing it on the coins of Alexander the younger, Ptolemy showed the tutelage he exercised over the young king. Subsequently this type became the general type of Ptolemaic coinage.
     
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