Proto-Contorniate - HELP any body got any more info on the edge???

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by SwK, Feb 13, 2016.

  1. SwK

    SwK Junior Member

    FAUSTINA.jpg
    ROMAN EMPIRE. FAUSTINA THE YOUNGER (Faustina II), WIFE OF MARCUS AURELIUS, AD 147-175.Bronze AE Sestertius, 26.85 g., 33 mm. struck ca. AD 161.
    Obv. FAVSTINA AVGVSTA, draped bust right.
    Rev. TEMPOR FELIC, Faustina standing, looking left, holding two infants in her arms with four other children gathered by her feet. The two infants are no doubt the twins Titus Aurelius Fulvus Antoninus and Lucius Aurelius Commodus Antoninus who would later become the emperor Commodus. The subject of their birth is also celebrated with other types.

    A wonderful striking, surfaces wonderful with a natural light green patination being an important historical type.


    Proto-Contorniate

    The edge of this coin is known with a ‘fine milling’ they are noted in the period of Trajan to Marcus Aurelius. The coins a full round and are very carefully struck. The striking’s with such edging which are thicker and are all exceptional beautifully struck and were to have been used as presentation pieces. (This is the 11th piece known + most worn in antiquity) The striking’s are all made well centred and the die axis is upright. These Sestertius were also made for presentation purposes at New Year.
     
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  3. YOC

    YOC Well-Known Member

    Interesting, I don't know anything about this coin. What's the strange effect around the lettering towards the bottom of the obverse? Looks like a double strike type effect.
    The patina is strange, it's obviously been preserved very well indeed and perhaps treasured.
     
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  4. SwK

    SwK Junior Member

    PATINA

    The light blue / or turquoise patina or pea-green: In the last period of the Roman empire as a consequence of the economic crisis the alloy used to struck bronze coins was no longer good: they initially added lead, but it resulted a metal less strong, that was in a short time used up. To solve this problem and stabilize the alloy, they added arsenic. The alloy was now better, stronger. It was in fact a revolutionary idea.

    I never saw in my life these kind of patina on coins of the first two centuries of the Roman Empire.
     
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  5. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    The colour is stunning. I had no idea they milled coins.
     
  6. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Ummm, maybe this sweet ride will give you a clue?


    Faustina II.jpg

    :woot:

    ... just jokes ...

    Sadly, my sweet Faustina-II sestertius example is a wee bit more worn than your outstanding OP-example!!

    Bravo on your amazing coin ... my coin's edges are quite smooth (*sigh*)

    Man, I "love" the four children on the reverse (very cool coin)


    :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2016
  7. Pishpash

    Pishpash Well-Known Member

    Six children, or do you have something against babies???? :D
     
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  8. stevex6

    stevex6 Random Mayhem

    Oooops, sorry => but I meant that I really loved the four lil' peeps at foot (but you're correct => I love all six kids!!)

    ... I'm very jealous of that OP-coin (I would trade my coin, plus a case of Canadian Moosehead Beer, in a heartbeat!!)

    :rolleyes:
     
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  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    I didn't either, although I've seen it done in preparation for setting coins in a bezel. Perhaps the OP coin was destined for such a fate? Surely not...
     
  10. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Beautiful coin. Well detailed.
     
  11. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    This is not what I think of when hearing Proto-Contorniate. Those had more damage with a groove to hold in a standard. They always seem to look well 'used'. This looks like a carefully made coin for presentation (perhaps a 'proof') and could have been intended for a frame of jewelry but possibly just well done for presentation.

    Can you tell from the field flatness which side was the upper die? I do not have a photo that shows it well but some coins of this period really look like the portrait was on the punch die and have a concave field. The one below is one but you really can't tell much from the photo.
    re2360bb0129.jpg
     
  12. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    I think my understanding of the term is closer to Doug's. When I've seen coins described as proto-contorniates, they are almost always worn and have a more pronounced raised 'rim', like this example from CNG:

    image.jpeg
     
  13. Ardatirion

    Ardatirion Où est mon poisson

    The example that zumbly posted is a true proto-contorniate. I am not familiar with any "milled" examples like SwK illustrates.

    SwK, can you point me to any discussion on the other purported examples?
     
  14. SwK

    SwK Junior Member

    Thank you for comment, the reason I am requesting further information is I do not have other photos to support what I have been told. Maybe the heading should be A type of 'contorniate'?

    The whole coin were there is patina is all the same, I would consider the edging was created in antiquity. A number of people have said it is so well struck it has the appearence with the added edge to be 'a presentation piece'

    ? All help please
    Thank you for comment, the reason I am requesting further information is I do not have other photos to support what I have been told. Maybe the heading should be A type of 'contorniate'?

    The whole coin were there is patina is all the same, I would consider the edging was created in antiquity. A number of people have said it is so well struck it has the appearence with the added edge to be 'a presentation piece'

    ? All help please
     
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  15. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    As I understand it, proto-contorniates were by definition hammered around the edges to produce the raised rims. Filing of the edges, decorative or for other purposes, would not have been part of the process. Contorniates were cast or struck and the reason for the production of both types is speculative.

    Your coin is a gorgeous standard sestertius and the flan crack was probably created when it was struck. The flan crack makes it unsuitable for hammering into a proto-contorniate. The crack would propagate if the edges were hammered, destroying the coin. It seems unlikely that we will ever know when and why the edges were filed. Decorative? Preparation for setting in a bezel? Maybe you can find evidence of purpose of other such rim filing amongst the plethora of articles listed below.

    Nathan t. Elkins, Medallions, Protocontorniates, and Contorniates in the Museum of Art and Archaeology, Muse 46 (2012): 15-44

    Peter Kos, Proto-contorniates?, Rivista Italiana di Numismatica 95 (1993) p. 431-438

    https://sites.google.com/site/digitallibrarynumis/subjects/04-roman-coins/19-medallions-contorniates
     
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  16. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Actually, the 'milled' edges of the OP coin reminds me of my Otho denarius. The general opinion of those I've shown it to is that it's probably ex-jewelry.

    upload_2016-2-14_21-4-1.png
     
  17. SwK

    SwK Junior Member

    Hi

    Are there any mount marks?
    Is your coin perfect round?
    How about the toning on the coin & ege is it the same?

    Jeff
    ps: I DO NOT SPEAK GERMAN SO NOT SURE WHAT IT SAYS :(

    Someone found my coin in RAUCH 90 , AUCTION 2012
    RÖMISCHE KAISERZEIT
    Faustina Minor (147-176)
    (D) Sestertius (26,84g), Roma, 161-176 n.Chr. Av.: FAVSTINA - AVGVSTA, Büste mit Drapierung n.r. Rv.: TEMPOR FELIC / S - C (in den Feldern), Faustina mit zwei Kindern auf den Armen v.v., Kopf n.l., zu Füßen vier weitere Kinder. -- Dünner Schrötlingsriss. RIC 1673, C 222. Wunderbar zentriertes und gut ausgeprägtes Prachtexemplar mit unberührten Oberflächen und herrlicher hellgrüner Patina. vzgl.-stplfr.
     
  18. SwK

    SwK Junior Member

    image.png
    IMAGE FROM RAUCH 90 SALE
     
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  19. TIF

    TIF Always learning.


    The translation, per Google Translate + a few additional individually translated words and abbreviations:

    ROMAN EMPIRE
    Faustina Minor (147-176)
    (D) Sestertius (26.84 g), Roma, 161-176 AD. Av .: FAVSTINA - AVGVSTA, bust with draping N.R. Rv .: TEMPOR Felic / S - C (in the fields), Faustina V. V. with two children in their arms, N. L. head to feet four more children. - Thin flan crack. RIC 1673 C 222. Wonderfully centered and well pronounced splendid specimen with pristine surfaces and beautiful light green patina. Extremely Fine - Uncirculated.
     
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  20. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Yes, it is very round, and there are some marks which are likely to be mount marks though they are not obvious in this picture.

    image.png
     
  21. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    WC Fields... "I'm very fond of children - girl children, around [age] 18 or 20." (from The Bank Dick )
     
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