Proper way to dip a coin?

SuperDave · Dec 31, 2005

It's an 1879-S.

Here's another something for you to try:

http://educ.queensu.ca/~science/main/concept/chem/c03/C03DEEA1.htm

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GDJMSP · Dec 31, 2005

julzboi661 said:

Wipe with a very soft plushie towel, .....
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THIS is what will cause hairlines - not the dipping.

Although dipping a coin may very well, and often does, reveal hairlines that were already on the coin and obscured by the toning. That's why some folks think dipping a coin causes hairlines - it doesn't really. It just makes the ones already there visible.

gmarguli · Dec 31, 2005

zaneman said:

I'd say it's an ms-62+, with a really sharp strike. The toning is nearly black.
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Don't dip it. You will either not remove all the toning and have a dead looking coin or you will remove all the toning and have a dead looking coin. Either way, the coin will look dead. Dark toning is very difficult to remove and only certain kinds should be attempted to be removed.

GDJMSP · Dec 31, 2005

zaneman said:

I also know that most coins have been dipped if they have cartwheel luster or any high degree of luster to this day. I should also mention (which I am sure you know) that PCGS, NGC etc. will slab a properly dipped coin.
BTW, that is a super nice reverse on that coin, I can see why you tried to restore the obverse!
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There seems to be some confusion here. A coin being dipped doesn't create luster - dipping removes luster. And just because a coin is blast white, that doesn't mean it has luster at all.

Your comment seems to indicate to me that you equate cartwheel luster, or a high degree of luster, with a coin being blast white. That is not the case at all - not even close. Even a heavily toned coin can have cartwheel luster. See the reverse of that '79-S SuperDave posted - that coin has cartwheel luster. Now his dipping the coin may have made the luster more visible, but it has also removed a certain portion of the luster that was there originally.

Luster is the microscopic flow lines in the metal of a coin created by the striking of the coin. Before a planchet is struck it is flat except for the rim. When the dies strike the coin, the metal actually moves, flows into the recesses of the coin die. It is this movement of the metal across the surfaces of the die that creates the flow lines. And these microscopic flowlines in turn reflect light in a very diffused manner - it is the reflection of the light that is luster.

Some coins can be totally blast white and yet have no luster at all. That is because when you dip a coin, the acid in the dip that removes the toning also removes microscopic particles of metal from the coin - it removes the flowlines. If you were to look at a coin, one with full luster, under high magnification what the surface of the coin would look like is something like this - /\/\/\/\/\/\/\. Those are the flowlines and it is the different angles that reflects the light in a diffused manner and create the luster or cartwheel effect. But if you dip a coin that same surface will now look like this - /\/\/\/\/\ and this greatly reduces the luster. And if you over-dip a coin it will look like this - ______________ and there will be no luster at all.

With an uncirculated toned coin, those flowlines are still there and it looks just like this - /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ but sometimes the toning, if heavy enough, can fill in the valleys between the flowlines and reduce the effect of the luster. But if it is not heavy, the toning just covers the flowlines in a thin even layer and reflects the light in different colors just like a prism. The toning in fact acts as a prism which is what produces the colors. And the luster is not affected at all except it's not white anymore.

TOLS196024 · Dec 31, 2005

Hey guys I have a quick question. I recently purchased a .999 pure silver bar that the previous owner left exposed to the air. As a result, it has begun to tone unattractively. So, is it safe to dip pure silver or only coin silver? Thanks in advance!

gmarguli · Dec 31, 2005

mrbrklyn said:

Dipping, in fact, is never a proper thing to do unless the coin is corroding. That is as a fact. Now if we want to now discuss fantasy, we can talk about how to properly dip a coin (and always leave hairlines or worse)and scraping part of the coin from the surface.

Dipping is coin vandalism.
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I'm not sure where you're getting these facts, but whoever is telling them to you, stay away from them as they are clueless. Dipping a coin removes a layer of surface oxidation. It does not leave hairlines (drying the coin improperly might). It does not hurt a coin. A vast majority of coins in the marketplace and in slabs have been dipped at one time. You'd never know it by looking at them.

Dipping a coin only hurts it when you've over dipped the coin (left it too long in the acid solution) or you've removed surface layers that you should not have because they have already changed the condition of the surface (i.e. dark black toning). THAT IS A FACT!

zaneman · Dec 31, 2005

GDJMSP said:

There seems to be some confusion here. A coin being dipped doesn't create luster - dipping removes luster. And just because a coin is blast white, that doesn't mean it has luster at all.

Your comment seems to indicate to me that you equate cartwheel luster, or a high degree of luster, with a coin being blast white. That is not the case at all - not even close. Even a heavily toned coin can have cartwheel luster. See the reverse of that '79-S SuperDave posted - that coin has cartwheel luster. Now his dipping the coin may have made the luster more visible, but it has also removed a certain portion of the luster that was there originally.

Luster is the microscopic flow lines in the metal of a coin created by the striking of the coin. Before a planchet is struck it is flat except for the rim. When the dies strike the coin, the metal actually moves, flows into the recesses of the coin die. It is this movement of the metal across the surfaces of the die that creates the flow lines. And these microscopic flowlines in turn reflect light in a very diffused manner - it is the reflection of the light that is luster.

Some coins can be totally blast white and yet have no luster at all. That is because when you dip a coin, the acid in the dip that removes the toning also removes microscopic particles of metal from the coin - it removes the flowlines. If you were to look at a coin, one with full luster, under high magnification what the surface of the coin would look like is something like this - /\/\/\/\/\/\/\. Those are the flowlines and it is the different angles that reflects the light in a diffused manner and create the luster or cartwheel effect. But if you dip a coin that same surface will now look like this - /\/\/\/\/\ and this greatly reduces the luster. And if you over-dip a coin it will look like this - ______________ and there will be no luster at all.

With an uncirculated toned coin, those flowlines are still there and it looks just like this - /\/\/\/\/\/\/\ but sometimes the toning, if heavy enough, can fill in the valleys between the flowlines and reduce the effect of the luster. But if it is not heavy, the toning just covers the flowlines in a thin even layer and reflects the light in different colors just like a prism. The toning in fact acts as a prism which is what produces the colors. And the luster is not affected at all except it's not white anymore.
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GD, Thanks for the highly informative post. I love this forum, as I learn something new every single day. Thanks!

zaneman · Dec 31, 2005

I showed the coin to a couple people, and they said the toning is rainbow colored, but I just can't see it. So, I think I will keep the coin as it is.

fjrosetti · Dec 31, 2005

I dipped all of my mint medals to improve their appearance. Turned into the ugliest mess of items I have ever seen!!

So what did I do about it? I dipped them again!! Terrible results!

I followed this up by dipping my Morgan dollar collection; a good five minutes for each coin. They turned out to be the deadest looking coins you can imagine!! Stripped right down to slug status.

Put them, along with the mint medals, into my dead coinage albumn and gave them to my mother-in-law for her birthday. Problem solved!!

gmarguli · Dec 31, 2005

I dipped all of my mint medals to improve their appearance. Turned into the ugliest mess of items I have ever seen!!

So what did I do about it? I dipped them again!! Terrible results!

Copper? If so, you can't dip copper easily.

I followed this up by dipping my Morgan dollar collection; a good five minutes for each coin. They turned out to be the deadest looking coins you can imagine!! Stripped right down to slug status.

No, you soaked them. A dip is 2-5 seconds. 5 minutes in an acid bath will kill them.

mpaulson · Jan 1, 2006

yes a 40 Molar concentration of Nitric is imposible.

mrbrklyn · Jan 2, 2006

gmarguli said:

I'm not sure where you're getting these facts, but whoever is telling them to you, stay away from them as they are clueless. Dipping a coin removes a layer of surface oxidation. It does not leave hairlines (drying the coin improperly might). It does not hurt a coin. A vast majority of coins in the marketplace and in slabs have been dipped at one time. You'd never know it by looking at them.

Dipping a coin only hurts it when you've over dipped the coin (left it too long in the acid solution) or you've removed surface layers that you should not have because they have already changed the condition of the surface (i.e. dark black toning). THAT IS A FACT!
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Even in the NCS conservation service, they are quit clear, after all the marketing clap trap, that you should have the coins cleaned after they're damaged.

" Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail. It is essential to speak with an NCS professional:

* when you notice changes in a coin, such as discoloring or spotting
* before you try to conserve a damaged coin yourself
* if your coin has been subjected to extreme environmental conditions
* after you have submitted a coin to a grading service and had it returned with a "no grade" designation for certain reasons such as "PVC," "artificial toning" or "Residue.""

GDJMSP · Jan 2, 2006

You really should have posted the entire paragraphs from the NCS site so that they are not taken out of context -

Sometimes confusion arises about the term "conservation." Numismatic conservation involves examination, scientific analysis, and a reliance upon an extensive base of numismatic knowledge to determine the nature of a coin’s state of preservation and the extent of any damage. Conservation also encompasses appropriate procedures to protect the coin’s original appearance and to guard against future deterioration to whatever extent possible.

Professional conservation should not be confused with "Coin Doctoring", in which an attempt is made to improve the appearance and grade of a coin through deceptive means such as artificial toning and where unaccepted or unorthodox methods are employed. Also not qualifying as conservation is restoration where mechanical repairs are made such as filling holes, smoothing out scratches, and re-engraving of detail. It is essential to speak with an NCS professional:

when you notice changes in a coin, such as discoloring or spotting
before you try to conserve a damaged coin yourself
if your coin has been subjected to extreme environmental conditions
after you have submitted a coin to a grading service and had it returned with a "no grade" designation for certain reasons such as "PVC," "artificial toning" or "Residue."
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Given that, I'm not quite sure what point it is that you are trying to make. Yes, NCS recommends that you have your coins conserved (call it cleaned if you like ) by them under certain circumstances. But what does that have to do with the comments made by Greg ?

Greg's comments are quite correct by the way. He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the subject that I know of.

mrbrklyn · Jan 2, 2006

GDJMSP said:

Greg's comments are quite correct by the way. He is one of the most knowledgeable people on the subject that I know of.
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Well, sugeons make mistakes sometimes as well.

Greg is fundementally wrong to say that dipping the coin is not damaging it. It's damaging the coin every time. Someone refered to that site as encouragement that one shoould clean the coin which is not damaged. I simply point out that their recomendation is to use their service when the coin is damaged. The coin under discussion is not damaged.

This point, however, underscores something else. Even if the messiah himself came to earth and said otherwise, dipping a coin STILL damages it.

Ruben

GDJMSP · Jan 2, 2006

mrbrklyn said:

Well, sugeons make mistakes sometimes as well.

Greg is fundementally wrong to say that dipping the coin is not damaging it. It's damaging the coin every time. Someone refered to that site as encouragement that one shoould clean the coin which is not damaged. I simply point out that their recomendation is to use their service when the coin is damaged. The coin under discussion is not damaged.

This point, however, underscores something else. Even if the messiah himself came to earth and said otherwise, dipping a coin STILL damages it.

Ruben
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You certainly have the right to believe what you wish, but let's go back to what he originally said -

gmarguli said:

I'm not sure where you're getting these facts, but whoever is telling them to you, stay away from them as they are clueless. Dipping a coin removes a layer of surface oxidation. It does not leave hairlines (drying the coin improperly might). It does not hurt a coin. A vast majority of coins in the marketplace and in slabs have been dipped at one time. You'd never know it by looking at them.

Dipping a coin only hurts it when you've over dipped the coin (left it too long in the acid solution) or you've removed surface layers that you should not have because they have already changed the condition of the surface (i.e. dark black toning). THAT IS A FACT!
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On one point I will agree there is certainly some disagreement among some in the numismatic field - that being whether dipping a coin hurts (damages) the coin in every case.

Some people believe that it does damage the coin. But for those who do believe this, then they must also believe that about 80 - 90% of older silver coins are damaged, because that's a fairly accurate percentage for how many of them have been dipped.

By the same token there a great many very knowledgeable people in numismatics who believe the very same thing as what Greg said - that properly dipping a coin does not harm the coin. And I will readily agree that if a coin has been properly dipped, even the most expert eye cannot tell that it has been dipped.

That does not mean that I personally agree with dipping coins - it simply means exactly what I said. But I will agree that properly dipping a coin can quite often improve the coin's eye appeal. But if done improperly, it can ruin a coin.

Now let me say this, I am not posting this to disagree with you Ruben - I am posting it so that both opinions may be fairly discussed to allow those want to know about the subject to make up their own minds about dipping coins.

nit4alaf · Jan 3, 2006

SuperDave said:

It's an 1879-S.

Here's another something for you to try:

http://educ.queensu.ca/~science/main/concept/chem/c03/C03DEEA1.htm
Click to expand...

After reading the information in the article linked above, has the coin now become a "cleaned" coin? What is the overall effect on the coin? Would this process diminish the value or appearance of the coin?

Thanks,

Linda

longnine009 · Jan 3, 2006

Zaneman I'm not trying to be sarcastic when ask this, but what is the point of trying to make an old coin look new?

It's not true that "everyone" hates dark toning, some people love it. And what people think is ugly today they may well be clamoring for tomorrow. If you don't believe me look up "destroyed jeans" or "distressed jeans." These are jeans that most people threw in the garbage can 10 years ago. Now they pay hundreds of dollars for them.

One other thing, the darker the toning the stronger the bond it has on the metal. It's very difficult to get it out of protected areas and reeding. That's one of the signs that a coin has been dipped in the first place, you can still see the black or dark blue around protected areas and denticles.

Speedy · Jan 3, 2006

Linda
I would say yes...the only thing is....that kind of cleaning sometimes is missed by an expert....so they might just let it pass.
You see about 90% of all Morgan Dollars have been dipped at sometime and lots of them arein slabs...that doesn't mean that PCGS and NCG guys missed them it means that the dipping was bad...it didn't leave the coin dull...it didn't leave hairlines...that is what most people look for with cleaning....
I'm not saying you should dip your coins.....but lots of people do.

Speedy

mrbrklyn · Jan 3, 2006

GDJMSP said:

By the same token there a great many very knowledgeable people in numismatics who believe the very same thing as what Greg said - that properly dipping a coin does not harm the coin. And I will readily agree that if a coin has been properly dipped, even the most expert eye cannot tell that it has been dipped.
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Numismatic experts can pounder this all they want, but there is a simple chemical truth involved. The chemicals ***remove*** metal and metal oxidates from the coin. This is damaging the coin.The funny thing reading the NCG writeup is that they said it was irresonsible to leave a painting, barely seeable, under a dark old varnish. However, they were wrong that all institutions always remove this varnish. In fact, this is a huge problem with several Rembrandts at the Met and Frisk museums. Rembrandt painted them using heavey varnish as part of his technique. Its not readly possbily to lift the varnish and retore the painting. Even works like "The Polsih Rider" are under attack.

The first rule of restoration, which is not is being discussed here, and not preservation, is that any tampering with the object damages the object. Proper resotration does two things. First it does the least damage possible to the object, and secondly recreates something that was missing from the item.

In a word, an expert in this area, should be even more sensitive about giving advise to a lay person on the web about cleaning a coin, or encouraging someone to take it upon themselves to clean a coin which is not fundementally damaged.

I base this opinion on hard facts, and not emotional attachment, political objective, business interst or any personal feelings.

Ruben

zaneman · Jan 3, 2006

longnine009 said:

Zaneman I'm not trying to be sarcastic when ask this, but what is the point of trying to make an old coin look new?

It's not true that "everyone" hates dark toning, some people love it. And what people think is ugly today they may well be clamoring for tomorrow. If you don't believe me look up "destroyed jeans" or "distressed jeans." These are jeans that most people threw in the garbage can 10 years ago. Now they pay hundreds of dollars for them.

One other thing, the darker the toning the stronger the bond it has on the metal. It's very difficult to get it out of protected areas and reeding. That's one of the signs that a coin has been dipped in the first place, you can still see the black or dark blue around protected areas and denticles.
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Well, it's a coin for my personal collection, and I think I'd enjoy it more without the toning.

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