Proof vs. Bullion Coins

Would appreciate an education on this. Say I have two 2017 Silver Eagles, one proof PR70 and the other is a bullion coin, MS70 also. What would be the difference between the two as far as potential future market value is concerned. Also, if you know of any other difference (whether monetary or not), please advise. Many thanks.

 

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Actually as far as I know, they are both bullion coins. The difference in the manufacture is that the proof is struck from proof dies which have sharper detail and the strike is longer and stronger giving intricate detail and mirror fields. When issued, the proof cost more and the differential in value would persist. As far as appreciation, that's anyone's guess. Let's see what others say.

 

Hi Jeff: You may find this thread that I started awhile ago useful.

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/american-silver-eagles-mintages-vs-market-value.245829/

 

"Kentucky" - Thanks very much for your input. Admittedly, being a beginner, I have much to learn. Up until a couple of days ago, I didn't even know what a bullion coin was. For a little background, here's what prompted my question. I bought a "limited edition", Mercanti-signed 2017 MS-70 silver eagle. The label says it was struck at West Point, but there's no "W" mint mark. But when I went to the official US Mint website, I saw that their Silver Eagles minted at West Point had a "W" mint mark. So I asked them (US Mint) about it, and that's when I found out that the one without the "W" is probably a bullion coin. That got me to wondering if there is an intrinsic or other difference between the two.
"Phil" - Thank you for the link - I'll certainly check it out and revert.

 

That all points to the fact that you really should not be buying anything that you don't understand. You probably paid a premium for the coin which may not be returned when you sell it.

It is my opinion that ultimately all ASE coins will be worth nothing more than melt value plus a small premium at some point in the future. Others will disagree with me.

 

I'll guess there are less 70s in MS.

 

The market has proven this not to be true in countless ways.

 

While predicting the future price of something you buy today isn't a sure thing, I would be careful about buying recent ASEs in any sort of 70 holder for a few reasons. First, populations of these coins are pretty high, and will not go down. Second, ASEs in particular are prone to spotting over the course of several years after they were produced, and there's nothing that can be done to reverse it. A 70 with spots is unsaleable. Finally, premiums on special labels are typically (but not always) limited to a short secondary market.

 

What nonsense. How can the market have proved whether something is ultimately true or not? Ultimate is in the future. You don't have to agree with me, but at least you should disagree in a logical manner.

 

Thanks. Always good to know and learn from others' insights. Appreciate it.

 

There is nothing nonsense about it. You are talking about the most popular modern collectable by far that has shown to have a strong market for many years on end. Good luck ever getting a proof or an RP at melt, or an enhanced, especially the graded ones.

 

I have to agree with @sakata , and here's my thought process on it, and that's all it is; my opinion, and it pretty much is the same theory I have about all moderns, and Morgan dollars (although the Morgans will retain their 'value' long then the Moderns IMO). Bear with me while I explain...

When I was a kid in the early/mid 70's, me and my buddies would go up to the candy store regularly, and buy packs of baseball cards. We would grab that odd tasting piece of gum and shove it in our mouth while we scanned through the cards to see who we got. A Lerrin LaGrow (insert any common player name)? Blah! A Nolan Ryan (insert any star player name here)! Sweet!

What did we do with those cards? Well, the Lerrin LaGrows and the like we would flip. You basically tossed them to the ground, and it was a game, and the winner would get the other players card. In other words, they weren't cared for, or special, and were tossed around recklessly. Much like coins of old weren't savored, they were used.

Oh, the Nolan Ryans, Tom Seavers, Carl Yazstremski (sic)? They went into out bicycle spokes, held on with one of Mom's clothespins. Yeah buddy! I'm riding with Seaver, and he's making my bike sound like a motorcycle! Life was grand!

Then in the mid 80's, someone decided there was great value in these small cardboard cards, and suddenly, the games stopped. The bicycles went silent. An era died. A kid would go to the store, open the pack like a surgeon with a delicate touch, and any semi-star player went into a rigid plastic holder, or carefully slid into a card holder page. I saw this exact occurrence more then once at John & Sophie's candy store.

Now, every baseball card was in near 'mint' condition. Not just a few, but almost all of the baseball cards of the 80's/90's and newer are in mint or near mint condition. No more Willie Mays with a huge crease from where he would flap against the spokes, just pristine cards, near and far.

And then what happened? People realized that there was nothing special about a card from 1991 in mint condition. Everyone had that card in that condition. And the bottom eventually dropped, and while I have no clue any more about card values, I can feel pretty confident that there are very few cards whose value has surpassed the rate of inflation.

So what does that have to do with coins?

Show me an MS-70 coin pre-1965. If you could, no matter what the coin was, it would be worth a very large sum. Why? Because they're just not around. They were used as currency, and not stowed away in hermetically sealed plastic and kept on Funk and Wagnall's front porch.

But with moderns, ASE's, and the like, in 200 years, there will be MILLIONS of MS70 coins that will then be 200 years old. Millions. Maybe even Billions at the rate the mint is going. With such a great quantity in the highest possible grade, how can it be a valuable coin? Price, which equates to value (sort of, just nod your head in agreement for this), is determined for the most part by supply and demand. With a supply in the millions, in a hobby that has stagnant (or decreasing) hobbyist numbers, do you honestly believe that the prices will rise exponentially? Look at all of the proof sets, special 'Limited Edition' sets, "special this, and special that" that the mint has produced where the aftermarket price went stupid high initially, only to plummet soon thereafter. Do you think they'll ever recover? I don't.

So when the mint produces ASE's, and the TPG's give them all MS-68 thru MS-70s, there is nothing special about them. Today, yesterday, or tomorrow. Show me an ASE in G4 condition, and that I'd probably pay a premium for. But an MS ASE? I'll give you melt plus $1. MS-70's aren't rare, they're not scarce, and they aren't hard to come by or find on the open market - their values in my opinion are artificially inflated, and at some point, the market will realize that.

And that's my personal opinion on why ASE's and other 'coins' will will only retain small (negligible?) premiums over melt in the future. Feel free to call me names under your breath!

 

I'll be happy to buy all your ASE proofs and RPs for melt +3 so you guys can make a profit and not lose out since they're supposedly only worth melt to you guys. All you guys are doing is showing a lack of understanding of moderns and treating them like it's bullion stacking just because they're silver. There won't be billions of 70s in 200 years.

The hobby also doesn't have declining or stagnate collector numbers. The next generations of collectors enjoy the stuff you guys trash a lot, you just won't ever see them at a coin show because why should they? They buy online like they buy everything else.

ASEs are the modern Morgans. They're the most popular modern among many different groups. You also need to do research on ASEs if you think finding a 70 of any date is easy. It's only the last several years that has been the case as production got better and they started going right to grading. You might want to look up the numbers for the first 15 years of it. The market has already adjusted the 70 prices for the increased number in the recent years.

 

I own a bunch of ASE's, and paid no more than $2 over melt for any of them. No they aren't graded.

Maybe not billions in 200 yrs, but certainly millions. Remember, as each new coin comes out, (not just ASE's), a huge percentage of them go directly to the graders, and between now and 200 yrs, it's very possible that there will be billions of 70's.

I hope I'm wrong. I would love to see those that enjoy and collect the ASE's make a killing. But I just don't see it happening. I don't follow ASE trends, but haven't some of the more recent issues lost value from their initial purchase price? I smell proof sets from the '70s...

 

For the bullion ones sure, but there is three versions of them now not counting the special issues and only one is bullion.

You would need to average 10 million 70s a year for there to be billions by that time. We just aren't seeing those types of numbers. Really though it's unlikely that the program would continue that long without design changes or something changing up what it was anyway, even for moderns that would be a long time with no change.

Not that much. Most of the proofs will be 40 or more and the collector version about the same. That's on eBay too where the prices are most likely to be surpressed by the sheer number of them listed by various sellers. The special sets only really the 2013 set was a dud and a lot of that was how it was sold and it just ended up grading really well so even the grades didn't create much price separation. But there is a very different market for the more recent dates and the earlier ones.

You can also argue though that some of the loss is the mint pricing them so aggressively which a lot of mints seem to be doing now, but even with the correction there's still significant room over spot in their sale prices.

 

To me, ASE business strikes (as well as American Gold Eagles) are a recognizable, liquid way to own an ounce of a precious metal. Nothing more, nothing less.

Why buy an ASE for say, $20, then pay $30 to get it graded? You’d have to have a $50 Silver price just to break even.

Proofs, on the other hand, are collectible coins and not a bullion investment — unless again, one wants to start in a real price hole.

This debate pops up periodically on this site, by the way.

 

NCLTs are not really coins in the sense of what coins were meant to be. They are created as collectibles, and anything that comes with a Certificate of Authenticity will not have long-term value. When the only thing making something valuable is the plastic it is put into, then that should be a clue.

 

Numismatics vs Bullion valuations does add anomalies from time to time.

I recently sold some "special" ASEs for from 5x to 33x what I paid for them.

Who knows what the future holds.

 

The problem is your answer will vary depending if a Pure bullion person is offering their opinion, or a more collector/numismatic person.

The more educated a person is the more they'll be able to make a good decision on buys and sells. For instance a dealer may only offer SPOT price on a proof or non-proof ASE. Or if you are more knowledgeable they may offer more. The economy will have a lot to do with valuation as the yield from bullion price to any premium of the ASE may rise in a high demand time, to close to spot during bad economic times.

It all depends and your answers and stances will all vary.

 

I would not collect ASE Proof or MS 70s. I don't see them keeping that grade, long term. I do see ASEs as collectables that will be worth more than melt for longer than any of us will be alive. Past that it's just not important. It's not wise to view them as just silver bullion at this point.