I am having a bit of a disagreement with another member here, so I think that proof coins are high relief and he disagrees. So I need a CoinTalkers opinion to prove him wrong So are proof coins high relief??
Preparation of a proof striking usually involved polishing of the dies. They can usually be distinguished from normal circulation coins by their sharper rims and design, as well as much smoother "fields" - the blank areas not part of the coin's design. The dies for making modern proof coins are often treated with chemicals to make certain parts of the design take on a frosted appearance, with the polished fields taking on a mirror finish. Several other methods have been used in the past to achieve this effect, including sand blasting the dies, and matte proofs. Proof coins of the early 19th century even appear to be scratched, but it was part of the production process. Most proof coins are double struck. This does not normally result in doubling that is readily observable, but does result in the devices being struck fully. ... Definition of "proof coinage" via Wikipedia. Sadly, It mentions nothing about the coins being struck in high relief. Good luck in this "argument". -Brian
That just tells you how a proof is made Brian!! Not the description of the design coin details quality.
No, Proof coins are not high relief. There are a few that I can think of, such as the 1907 Saint Gaudens High Relief Wire rim. Here's a URL to one: http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com/coins_for_sale/1907-high-relief-wire-rim-ngc-pf64-3163005_2770_d.htm But in general, no. Proof coins are known as Master coins, or collector coins. And they are the same size as the Business strikes, just struck different. Like polished dies, and struck more than once, with a lower mintage. So no, they are not high relief.
Well, in the description in the making of these coins, don't you think they'd mention that the mint uses higher relief dies for striking of proof coins? -Brian
Would it be safe to say that they are higher relief than business strikes? Thanks for the quick response though:smile
Ok, thanks, seems as I need to brush up on my vocabulary of high-relief. I did not realize it meant literally high up... I was under the impression it was a description of the die/strikes sharpness. Well you learn something everyday. Sorry Brian for being and idiot and not actually googling the definition of "high relief", well now after that little discussion I feel a topic coming on for friday....
Hey, don't be so hard on yourself. Everyone learns, even experts. There's always something that you don't know in numismatics. I was once truly truly dumb and didn't know anything about coins, so I decided to join CT. Now, I'm 100 times more educated than I would've ever have been if I just learned on my own.
Seems that you have answered your own question. Yes, Proof coins are struck two or more times under higher pressure than Business Strikes. This produces a coin with sharper details. But, as you now know, it does not produce High Relief coins (unless the design is High Relief). If you ever have the opportunity to compare a High Relief coin to a Low Relief version you will appreciate the difference. At your next coin show find a dealer that has both a 1907 High Relief St Gaudens and a regular Low Relief St Gaudens. The difference is striking. (Pun intended.)
There are several examples of higer relief proof dies and the mint used to cover up their existence and deny that they happened. Here are 5 case histories Consider the 1994-2008 proof cents. In 1993 the mint came up with the reverse die narrow AM cent in lower relief. This was probably done to maximize die life and to make the production of "one-squeeze" working dies easier. It was decided that the proofs should go back to the previous artwork. Now make up a roll of pre 1993 cents and a roll of 1993 and later cents. The difference in length is obvious. Hence, I am calling the longer roll type higher relief. Consider the 1971-1972 Ikes. THe 1972 P type 2 matches the proof dies of 1971 - 1972. I have no problem separating type 1's from type 2's by touch alone. The 1937-1964 silver type B quarter reverse was made from a type A hub by scooping away the field. It sure looks like enhanced relief. THe type B had centerlines added to the tailfeathers and was in use in 1968 - 1972 in the clad era. The 1968 to 1972 type B like proof dies are certainly in higher relief than the clads. This is because the silver quarters were in higher relief. There was also a 1968 S special proof die. Similiar to the 1937 effort, the field of a hub was trimed. THere were 4 varieties of 1968 S proofs. These same 4 show up on the 1969 D's. I can separate out both proof artwork varieties by touch alone. THe eagle on a proof 1956 (most) - 1963 Franklin half is bolder on the proofs.
I understand that, but thank you anyways! ... Also, wouldn't the 1921 and 1922 High Relief, Matte Proof Peace Dollars apply as well? -Brian
1921 & 1922 High Relief Proof Peace Dollars are High Relief because they were struck with High Relief dies, not because they are Proof coins. The same would apply to the Business Strike version of the 1922 Peace Dollar - struck with High Relief dies.
In regard to relief Proofs are just like their business strike counterparts. In other words, the relief is the same on both. And there have been no high relief coins even designed since 1922, and for a very specific reason - because high relief coins do not stack, nor do they strike up well. The '22 high relief Proof Peace dollars are the one exception to this rule, but there are so few of them that they don't really count. For all practical purposes it can be said that the '21 Peace dollar was the end of high relief coins.
This is what I think is the only modern coin the US Mint calls a High Relief striking and it was not a proof even though struck numerous times .
