Post Your C/S C/M Ancients

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by kolyan760, Apr 24, 2018.

  1. kolyan760

    kolyan760 Active Member

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  3. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum

    ANTIGONOS GONATAS.jpg
    ANTIGONOS GONATAS, King of Macedonia
    AE 19
    OBVERSE: Head of Athena right in crested Corinthian helmet
    REVERSE: BA above, ANTI monogram below, Pan advancing right, erecting trophy
    Struck at Macedonia, 277-239 BC
    4.58g, 19mm
    Lindgren III, 105, Sear #6786 (var)
    Countermarked on obverse
    PAMPHYLIA SIDE.jpg
    PAMPHYLIA SIDE
    Æ16
    OBVERSE: Head of Athena right, in crested Corinthian helmet, winged thunder bolt countermark
    REVERSE: SIDHTWN, Nike advancing left, holding wreath; pomegranate to left
    Struck at Side, 2d-1st Century BC
    2.72g, 16mm
    SNG Cop 408, BMC 66
     
  4. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    Somethings not right here, since "Luy" is not Aramaic for Ba'al.


    I can see that there is an inscription by the bull in the handstamp, but it is too small for me to read the characters. Could you give us a much larger blowup of that feature so I can make it out? As for the Luy reference, when I see an L--Y consonantal formation in conjunction with a Semitic divine name, it usually parses out to one of the forms for "mighty" or "Most high" as in the Hebrew expression El Elyon. But it is almost always attributive. So before I say more I'd like to see what you are looking at that is being read as "Luy."
     
  5. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  6. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member

    The characters in the handstamp are not true Aramaic, but are Punic variants on Phoenician letter forms, and read, from right to left (in good Semitic style), beth-ayin-lamedh = b'l The Beth in this case is open at the top, but in good Aramaic is closed.

    That element is where you noted on the Tarsos Cilician stater. There it is followed by tsade-resh-zayin = (ts)rz. Here again, the resh is open at the top, but in Aramaic is closed. Based on this spelling and the availability of alternatives, they do not appear to have pronounced the city name quite as we do.

    Unfortunately I cannot reproduce the ancient letters from my laptop keyboard, but when approximating what they are writing it is best to go with their phonetic equivalents in Semitic order rather than the graphic appearance of the forms. In other words, by "Luy" (in English letters, left to right) you meant b'l (in Semitic letters, right to left).
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2018
  7. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    I am curious if CoinTalkers consider this coin overstruck or countermarked? Unlike other countermarked issues a pair of dies were used. However the dies were very tiny compared to the host.

    alexandria-troas-both.jpg alexandria-troas-cm2.jpg alexandria-troas-cm1.jpg
    TROAS, Alexandria Troas, AE16 3.96g 261-246 BC
    Obv: Bear head right
    Rev: ?LE?A? horse

    Countermarked or overstruck with obv: 7mm helmet within circle of dots and rev: gorgoneion

    Host coin looks like CNG e-95, lot 40, of Alexandria Troas. SNG AUL 1460, Lindgren and Kovacs 322v, 261-246 BC

    In this state it reeminds me of CNG 61, lot 264.
     
  8. RAGNAROK

    RAGNAROK Naebody chaws me wi impunity

    Mexican countermark, The Zorro 2: Strikes back
    zoro.jpg
     
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  9. Jay GT4

    Jay GT4 Well-Known Member

    It was right in front of me the whole time! Thanks! :)
     
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  10. TIF

    TIF I am not an expert Supporter

    Interesting question! Are those two marks always known as a pair, one obverse and one reverse? In other words, it is certain that they were applied at the same time? If so, I vote for the term "overstruck".
     
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  11. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    I have no idea what that is but it's cool!
     
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  12. kolyan760

    kolyan760 Active Member

    Looks like it was struck on struck to me
     
  13. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    The question comes up rather often. Do we need consistency in the way we use terms? Do we call it o/s if the new application looks like a full coin design but c/m if it is just like a minor element?
    Akragas with Herakles c/m
    g20500bb0489.jpg

    Panticapion - Paired c/m star and bowcase
    g30940bb0505.jpg

    Byzantine Heraclius - paired two figures/SCL c/m
    rz0362fd2423.jpg
     
  14. lrbguy

    lrbguy Well-Known Member


    Ed, how sure are you that the reverse is overstruck with a Gorgonian? I was thinking that it reminds me of a facing Apollo with aura, as in this combo:
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/dr..._facing_apollo_and_amazon/893024/Default.aspx


    Here's another page with quite a few variations:
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/Search.aspx?search=true&searchQuery=apollo facing&searchQueryExclude=&searchCategory=0&searchCategoryLevel=2&searchCategoryAncient=True&searchCategoryUs=True&searchCategoryWorld=True&searchCategoryMedieval=False&searchBetween=0&searchBetweenAnd=0&searchDate=&searchUseThesaurus=True&searchDisplayCurrency=&searchDisplay=1&searchIdStore=0&searchQueryAnyWords=&searchExactPhrase=&searchTitleAndDescription=True&searchDateType=0&searchMaxRecords=100&SearchOnSale=False&Unassigned=False



    And this one is very close for a facing Apollo:
    https://www.vcoins.com/en/stores/no...0300_bc_interesting_style/813467/Default.aspx
     
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  15. Ryro

    Ryro "To the strongest!" Supporter

    I have one with a similar CM as Eds. It also lists as a Gorgon. Though I cannot discern much other than the CM, it may be a pontos. A little Gorgon on Gorgon action!
    CollageMaker Plus_20184617553160.png
    Kinda funny how Eds is a neat circle. Where mine looks like a splat. Wonder why that is?
     
  16. TIF

    TIF I am not an expert Supporter

    Sorry Charles, I forgot to reply to this. Yes, the countermark is known and documented for these coins of Apameia. Here's the listing from Howgego's Greek Imperial Countermarks:

    Howgego201-TycheApameiaListing.jpg
    Howgego201-Plate.jpg
     
  17. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    The reverse of this Seleucid coin was counter marked with an anchor on left field. AlexCounter O.JPG AlexCM R       Anchor.JPG
     
  18. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES! Supporter

    This ugly but interesting coin has a cool grapes CM on the obverse, the grapes are on the reverse as well as part of the original design.

    Capture.JPG

    Greek Cyclades, Siphnos, 3rd century BC


    O: Head of the youthful Apollo Karneios with ram's horn, grapes counterpunch. R: Poseidon,trident in his left hand holding , dolphin on the right, grapes lower left. SNG Cop. 785, 4.8 g, 19 mm.
     
  19. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES! Supporter

    I just took a new pic of this coin on the back deck, I'm not going to give it the ol' paint the background treatment...but here it is. Some worn almost smooth Julio Claudian with a bunch of counter marks.

    Still kind of hard to see on my pic, but..

    Obverse: AVG, TIC (I think), two helmets below with dots.

    Reverse: dolphin (it's facing right, dorsal fin is pointing up).

    100_4149.JPG

    This coin was a gift from my ol' coin buddy @Eng ....where did you go @Eng ????
     
  20. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    I have a coin with one or two countermarks....
    AthensCountermarkTet.jpg
     
    Ed Snible, Ryro, RAGNAROK and 6 others like this.
  21. 7Calbrey

    7Calbrey Well-Known Member

    I think this serrate bronze of Greek usurper Alexander Ballas has a counter mark on the cheek. The reverse shows Athena holding Nike. Houghton 900.

    AlexBalas O    Hoover 900.jpg AlexBalar R     AthNike.jpg
     
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