Post an MPC (Military Payment Certicate)

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by kaparthy, Mar 10, 2018.

  1. oklahomadanny

    oklahomadanny New Member

    A quick follow-up. Page 235 covers just the 2nd series #692 notes.

    You want to see pages 42-45.

    Page 42 has comparison photos of the notes and the others has more detailed information including the teletype sent to 'paymasters' to alert them to the error.
    PS: I corrected the "dollars" & "MPC" to the correct color of blue.

    It is my understanding the new 5th edition is due out this summer.
     
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  3. Searcher64

    Searcher64 Member

    You are correct OK. It has been a long time since I have really read my book. So, I did not remember that information. It will be harder to find, or receive in our current currency, to find defective examples. If the new systems are real good or get better, then we will not have many defects or star replacements to find.
     
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  4. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Here,s another one from my collection Series 521 $5, a very tough get in XF and above and another rare one with only 6,800,000 printed !! the nearest note to this
    In the series is nearly double the population, the $10 which is also considered very desirable is over 24,000,000 highest graded is only a 66PPQ !


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  5. EatYourWheatPennies

    EatYourWheatPennies Active Member

  6. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    The 692 $20 Missing Undertone error that will be at the Fest for auction is HUGE and very significant. The opportunity to even have a chance at owning one is incredibly rare. If you are into US MPC's then you have to get euphoric from this note, because if you know about MPC printing and production; then you understand just how rare MPC errors are, and while there are other series that have errors - the total sum that made it to circulation is astonishingly miniscule. They aren't like the plentiful accidents that come from intaglio printing and enormous volumes of notes like the BEP, MPC is printed using lithography and inspected by the printer and then military multiple times... and the D.O.D. loves destroying flawed things.

    My opinion on graded MPC's presented with some facts (not opinions.) Grading MPC is a tricky thing, again because of how they are printed. For me, a number is a number when it comes for MPC. Especially when it comes from PCGS who still to this day mark a plate number on graded MPCs.... there are no plates, they are sheet position indicators. And there's margin/centering issues like with the Series 691 $20 that was posted here at a 68... with those margins? But the REAL problem with grading MPC and why it doesn't really account for a beautiful note is the FACT that in intaglio printing which uses dye, not ink.... there are vast differences in pigment richness and density from run to run. There was a Series 661 $1 posted at a 69 which suffers from the usual strong face/weak back - weak face/strong back issue. That one has a weak printed back, you can see the color is more transparent and less rich than the face. I can tell you from personal experience - that finding a 661 $1 with rich printing on both sides is frustrating, and unfortunately these intricacies of MPC fail to factor into grading, when they absolutely should given the crazy price differences between 66 and 68 and the like.... But here an example of a strong face and back from my collection: 661 1.jpg

    The Series 661 $10 with the bright red, and the yellow and orange of the back is possibly the most affected by the printing process. Personally the most beautiful one I have ever seen was one of David Seeley's and graded at a (unflattering to some *not me!) mere 45. The printing was amazing. Strongest back I've seen yet. And I regret not grabbing it everyday. Here's the drastic difference with intensity in them, and between a 65 and a 68 no less! (images from Heritage).

    661 10.jpg
    Another example of how a slight lower grade looks vastly different than the one posted earlier. (one thing that annoys me is the overlooking of paper whiteness and it's regardless to the PPQ designation).
    521 10.jpg

    Now to go back to where we began; MPC errors... so far there is only one of these known, and it's in my possession. It's known in the key tier of MPC aficionados, and quite the note of contention between them. I would like to state gratitude to Carlson Chambliss for sparking me to follow through with this note for the love of the hobby, which at the end resulted in a confirmed authentication from PMG. This is the first time this note has been shown publicly.
    mpc error.jpg

    Lastly for the number lovers - this wonderful note with the PMG STAR designation is the only one of this denomination... and it's for sale! :D
    MPC 661 25 PMG66 STAR.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

    oklahomadanny likes this.
  7. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I have been collecting MPC for just about 20 Years now, started off like most people
    In the ungraded arena, however that didnt last very long for me ! as you say grading is a matter of opinion and that,s where it gets a little cloudy, you say its a
    68 i say its only a 67, so who,s right ? you have to have a TPG determine the
    Grade, graded MPC values are way up ! especially of populations of less then 5
    Ans since we could be talking about several thousand dollars here, independent
    Grading is a must have.
     
  8. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    But the TPG's are not equal in their grading when it comes to MPC. MPC is a little different when it comes to grading, wouldn't you agree? I think things like the concentration of the tints and dyes completely matter. And I am being completely honest - when I come across a note I like, I buy it. If it's the note with the appeal my eye likes and it's not slabbed, then it stays. If I come across a graded one and purchase it, then it stays until a comparable or better ungraded one comes along. As a seller - I like selling graded notes. As a collector, I get half as much enjoyment from a graded note as opposed to one natural and free.
     
  9. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I agree with you 100 percent, in my opinion and just about everybody else,s you only have two major players when it comes to grading paper money, that would
    Be PCGS and PMG and there isnt a third ! both have been around a long time and
    Are well respected, you will usually find a great continuity between the two when
    It comes to grading, i have done several tests on my own taking a PCGS note and
    Cross grading to PMG and vise versa, with a few exceptions you will usually get
    Back the same number have the top set at PCGS for the Series 661 and 681, have
    Been working on those for a long time, i got in to Military payment for the beautiful
    Art work that are on the notes and then started getting serious and started investing in them, i have many one of a kinds and have built an impressive collection but always looking to add to it :)
     
  10. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    That is the exact same way I got started too, and still keeps me doing so today.
    Damn, there are so many that are absolutely incredible designs... truly.
    The 681 $20 and especially that $10 you posted are amazing.....
     
  11. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    This.... was the most beautiful example of a 651 $10 I have ever seen. Believe it or not, I sold it. While my ungraded gem is perfect, it admittedly does not shine like this. MPC 651 10 PMG67.jpg
     
  12. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I have had the $10 and $20 for about 10 Years now, the $10 I actually won at
    A heritage auction and the $20 I bought from a non-collector, its funny that
    Only the Series 681 depicts any kind of military service, I actually just found
    The 50 Cent in 68 a few months back so all my fractionals are 68,s which is
    The highest in the 5,10.25,and 50, I have a 68 in the $5 but theres one 69
    But I know who has it and he will never give it up...LOL

    That Series 651 $10 in 67 is amazing, I think theirs only 3 at PCGS have seen
    Allot of 65,s people trying to sell 10 at a time on the bay.
     
  13. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Here,s my Series 481 example in 53PPQ, though its not an error note, these are very hard to find in 50 and above, the highest grade at PCGS is only a 65 and theres
    Only one of those !!


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  14. oklahomadanny

    oklahomadanny New Member

    This is an excellent post. :woot: Lots of great information with clear explanations! Bold vs. weak colors and paper whiteness/quality. A lot of us call that 'eye appeal'.

    That #481 $10 is an amazing error! :wideyed: PMG calls it 'insufficient inking error' I would use the term 'missing ink/tint error'. Yours is missing the red underprint where my #692 $20 is missing 2 colors/tints, blue & brown/tan. The MPC Fest auction is using the term "tints" in describing my note. I think the auction is Sunday. :p

    As I said in a previous post, 2 sheets stuck together after 2 colors were applied and missed the last 2 colors. Would be interesting to see one of those "progressives, composites & proofs books" that show individual colors for the series #481. :artist:

    I have a set of those reprints that Carlson Chambliss had printed years ago. A lot of them are replacements from his personal collection.

    Your explanation of why MPC errors are so RARE is spot on! Non-collectors do not realize that MPC was used from 6 months to ~4 years and then replaced with a new issue with the old series being TOTALLY destroyed! If you didn't exchange your old MPC on 'conversion day' (C-day) they were worthless the next day. That is why MPC is not plentiful. :cyclops:

    mpcusa has a press photo on another thread showing the notes being burned in 55 gal. drums cut in half, the same type that were used in the latrines. I served in Nam and these barrels were drug out daily/weekly? and diesel poured in and set on fire. The smell of shit burning is an unpleasant memory. :depressed:
     
  15. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    It really throws a wrench in to the population figures, and what,s left, since to my knowledge there were no records kept :(
     
  16. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    What really blows my mind and humbles at the same time - is that if it weren't for an incredible serviceman, who choose to do his duty for historical posterity instead of command - we would be left with NO series 691 notes, as they were all ordered to be destroyed. A small amount of each denomination were taken and released to the numismatic community.

    MPCUSA has posted the beautiful $20 denomination, the $1 and a remarkable $10 previously so I will provide the incredible $5 and the SECOND printing of the $20 in which slightly different tints were used. For your collecting information: the second printing of the $20 is more scarce than the first run and commands a higher price because of it. MPC 691 20 second .jpg

    The $5 denomination of Series 691 MPC shares it's design with that of the $5 note of Series 541, albeit the 691 $5 is perfection in my book. 691 $5 1.jpg 691 $5 2.jpg
    To round it out - the 691 $1 and the 541 $1 also shares a common design, but once again - the 691 is the best of the design choices. Also, the 691 $1 is one of the few MPC notes to use black as a tint. 691 $1 .jpg
     
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  17. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    That is not at all how this happened.

    It was not a service member, it was a civilian employee who conspired with a collector for the purpose of enriching both of them.

    The Army had made a decision that both Series 691 and 701 were no longer serviceable after having been in storage for many years. They then had to make a decision of what to do with them. They explored two choices -- destroy them as a controlled item or sell them as surplus material through DRMO.

    Many well-known and well-connected MPC collectors lobbied the Army not to destroy them but could not reach a consensus on what to do with them if not destroyed. Ultimately, many were destroyed but significant numbers were turned over to the Army Finance Museum at Fort Jackson where they remain today. The Museum has many boxes of notes. There are thousands of notes of all varieties in the museum archives and a small number on display.

    Those notes that are in the marketplace were stolen from the government and filtered into the marketplace from a source in Fort Wayne. Their doing so had nothing to do with some noble idea of preserving history. It was done to make them money.
     
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  18. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"


    Super nice Chris :) The 541 $5 is amazing !! one of the most desirable and hard
    To get notes in the entire MPC world !! not sure if i posted these earlier in this thread but here are my examples minus the 541 $5 LOL

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    Not a big fan of the first generation holders at PCGS that the Series 691 $20 resides
    In, very light weight material and you can easily damage the note if your not careful
    The later versions are much more rigid, but you wont a find another 68 in any holder other then a first generation one a lot of 20 were submitted back when PCGS
    when out on its own from PCGS coin when they were still in Newport Beach, California.
     
  19. CR Wallace

    CR Wallace New Member

    WOW.... I knew about the cases of notes at the museum, but never knew that it was a civilian and a collector who are responsible for the notes being released. Do you know about how many they made off with. And for clarity, are you saying that the 691 and 701 notes were taken together at the same time by these two people? Were the notes taken while they were at the museum, or before hand? Were they "officially" caught? Names released? You spawned so many questions!
     
  20. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Here,s one from my Series 651 set, in the 5 Cent denomination what,s unusual about this set was the fractional notes were removed from circulation almost
    Immediately after they had been issued, and per the information were only used
    For a brief time at Wheelus Air Force Base in Libya. as some circulated notes started
    Showing up in the late 80,s and 90,s.

    Still the fact remains all the notes in this set have super low production numbers
    and great examples are almost impossible to find, anything under 6,000,000 i would
    Consider rare, here,s the production figures for the Series 651.

    5 Cent (4,032,000)
    10 Cent (4,032,000)
    25 Cent (2,688,000)
    50 Cent (2,016,000)

    $1 (6,720,000)
    $5 (1,600,000)
    $10 (3,600,000)

    This 5 Cent example in PCGS 66PPQ is the highest graded example at PCGS, i guess
    They were in a hurry on these !!, i will be posting more from this set in the next couple days.



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  21. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    The Series 691 and 701 notes were removed around the same time. The parties involved were not caught. A small handful of confidants know who was involved but they are not talking. As far as I know there was no investigation. This activity took place while the notes were at Anniston about 2002 or 2003.

    Bill McNease gave a presentation at MPCFest V in 2004 about his trip to Anniston to see the notes. More recently, Bill Myers gave a presentation at MPCFest XVI about the notes at the Army Finance Museum.

    Only the person who took them knows how many he still has. For many years new notes would appear on Ebay in April or May. These notes were not in the MPC database that was maintained by Doug Bell. The seller was a U-sell-it store in Fort Wayne. The last group appeared in 2009 or 2010.
     
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