Post a favorite SEGS graded specimen in your collection.

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by 40_mila_kokkina, Mar 14, 2019.

  1. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    I hate to inform you of realities, but there are acceptable published standards which can be submitted by the Plaintiff for a jury review to establish proper grading for past designed/minted U.S. coins. This will eliminate some believed subjective unsupported antics used in the PCI trial, but the trial, with other past actions will be precedents for court acceptance. If a grade isn't listed in the published standard, the jury/court should/would accept the next lower grade properly defining coins. Photograde, which can be altered, subjectively viewed, as can be shown in believed improper published standards won't meet the general standards for absolute definition criteria. If a "industry" standard isn't available for the coin type, value should, probably would, be established by face/intrinsic value.

    The coin(s) value and damages can/will probably, as believed in precedents, be determined by the values stated between established published TPG grade value schedules, or market sales "comps", as stated in my prior #40 thread post, thus:
    Generally, in a legal action, unless there are published verbal/pictorial standards supported by an authoritative party, heresay, subjectivity, opinions, unsupported statements are inadmissible. If new industry standards can't be shown, an objective court probably could/would accept/require value establishment to be based on the last published written/pictorial standard or raw/intrinsic value for grading. The requirement of grading being determined by use of a published written pictorial standard is reasonable if it can be shown that the grading standards for coins in an estate can be varied by resubmission to that TPG.

    There are existing published written/illustrated standards supposedly endorse by credible Industry organizations which could be relatively objectively amended. If the "industry", as is previously stated by "many", can't establish a system where their services are purchased based on standards, performance, equitable repurchase, they probably belong in non-existent, as predecessors, or a trinket sales category.

    JMHO
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
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  3. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    I agree with your general observations, but as you've stated there's no motivation for fairness?/cooperation/change. It's realized that collectors haven't the funds/interest to effect. It'll require actions by estates where their investment is virtually nothing, and a positive outcome will usually include their process legal expenses.

    Although it's believed that creative license was taken in the PCI lawsuit, it opened "doors" which are believed adversely applicable to current TPG practices when precedents are utilized.

    You'd probably determine that legality currently is a problem for generation of a litigious action, as subjectivity isn't generally allowed in an acceptable court action. It appears that the Numismatic industry grading system is based on subjectivity, which would be difficult to disprove as acceptable grading. Without a resubmission process resulting in a differing outcome because of lacking published - industry accepted objective standards. Items, such as has been presented in this venue, might facilitate a legal objective outcome.

    It's believed the tools for Numismatic "Industry" correction of practices Et Al are already established, and only require a series of conditions, or a motivated group of State Commerce Departments to effect change.

    JMHO
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  4. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    lol first time I've ever been accused of being a liberal

    There's no point in even engaging with you when these two quotes show just how feelings are being pushed as facts in a crusade against them. Hopefully you won't mislead too many readers with this nonsense

    The anti TPG feelings bandwagon is too exhausting to engage constantly
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  5. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I hate to inform you of the realities, but but grading isn't math with hard and fast rules that have to always be followed. You don't just count marks to grade. A lot more goes into it and a Jury would have absolutely no idea what they are looking at or reading any more than if they were shown quantum physics equations.

    If you want to try and destroy numismatics by getting the courts to oversee grading that is certainly your right, just please send me a PM when you start to be successful so I can sell everything while it still has some value
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2019
  6. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Because this is an Irish Day! and this Fit's quite well.
     
  7. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    If you'd read the initially published illustrated standards, you'd find a simple summation of the grading system that generally had been used for grading coins since they were produced. There were generally little subjectivity required to establish a grade between buyer and seller. It's worked for 70 years of my life between relatively Numismatically uneducated individuals and shouldn't be a jury challenge.

    I've no interest in initiating an action for change, but would contribute evidence to support consistent objective grading standards. I've decided to sell scarce date/condition high value coins being returned with believed improper grading, that by themselves would support an action similar to that of PCI, at melt value to a prominent dealer who I'm certain will get a proper grade, resell, so I can determine real damages for an appreciable action.

    Numismatic consumers are just frustrated with TPG graded resubmitted coins being returned without a grade, diminished to a bullion piece by a details verdict.
    It's believed that a future action will show that TPG as SEGS have had their products resubmitted to realize better grades than critics state, and a valued system that states both grade and perceived deficiency. I primarily now buy high value coins that are stated premium for the grade, so that a comparable standard can be supplied in a believed imminent lawsuit.

    JMHO
     
  8. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Standards change over long periods of time. Should we return to the medical standards of 70 years ago, how about segregation, propeller planes, no cell phones, no computers, no internet, the list goes on and on and on.

    Every standard has changed and evolved throughout human history. People that don't continue to learn and keep up with the times get left behind and complain about how it should go back to how it was in the "good old days".

    Numismatics is one of the few areas where I see people legitimately arguing that knowledge should freeze in time and never be expanded or change because that's how some people want it
     
  9. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    It would be beneficial if we all would quote what is actually said.
    I said: That the top TPG's had a back bone and it stands strait up when it is motivated by Profit and money.
    The collector doesn't benefit them. The Dealer is their end project.

    They feed the dealer, that uses them to their benefit.
    Who in return peddle their product.

    That doesn't necessarily mean that they only do this for money.
    But it is the motivational factor. Their practices quickly turned from a benefit of the collector to a benefit of those that promote the selling of their product. I hate to say it to you but this is liberal.
    And, actually not being able to tell the difference, or refusing to Tell the difference is liberal.
    We all know which side of the line you tow!

    Besides all that? Are you arguing that the TPG's grade equivalent to the standards that brought them brought them to the publics eye?
     
  10. C-B-D

    C-B-D Well-Known Member

    I agree with Baseball that coin grading standards have changed or evolved over time, and they should have changed with increased knowledge and understanding of the minting process and strike anomalies, etc.

    But can we all consider that analogies never work when it comes to coins and coin forums? They just incite more back-and-forth nonsense and underhanded "holier than thou" comments, IMO.
     
    Santinidollar and baseball21 like this.
  11. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    I quoted you directly using the forums feature. That is actually what you wrote

    Lol just wow
     
  12. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Maybe they'll listen to it coming from you, but either way well said
     
  13. Santinidollar

    Santinidollar Supporter! Supporter

    Where the discussion goes off the rails is the idea that “grading standards” are or should be hammered in stone and carried down by Moses — and be the subject of flying lawsuits and government intervention if they are not abided by.

    I’ll cut to the chase: While grading standards are important to us, they are a glorified tick on an elephant’s butt in the grand scheme of life.

    To put it another way: It’s just coins!
     
    Pickin and Grinin and baseball21 like this.
  14. BuffaloHunter

    BuffaloHunter Short of a full herd Supporter

    Here's the only SEGS graded coin I've ever had...….

    SEGS 1937 Buffalo Nickel.jpg
     
    40_mila_kokkina likes this.
  15. longshot

    longshot Enthusiast Supporter

    Here's the only one I found amongst the stuff... Not sure if the toning would pass with everyone but it is nice I think.
    IMAG1077.jpg
     
  16. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    You have summated well, upon which the courts are likely to all agree. To what degree has the raw product improved in value, if any, since it's manufacture is the question? Who, what establishes that improvement amount, as this example generally states?: https://www.pcgs.com/grades

    There is a published written and illustrated believed only court acceptable standard which was generated before TPG were prominently established. If various firms decide to use that standard, can they arbitrarily change that standard? Can they change that standard without like-kind (to original) definition of the changes? Can they and others set values without guarantee value bonding for those products, as has been federally established in some jurisdictions?

    It's believed that subjective changes to an established published system must be shown as addendum with like-kind documentation of changes. That/those firm(s) using the deviated standard probably should not state that they are grading based/using the original 70 grade system.

    It's believed there isn't any reason why these firms can't declare use of a modified s****** (e.g. smarter) system, rather than modifying a system that can currently be readily used to determine relative values other than intrinsic. They could then have an infinite number of grades, each having an individual definition.

    Is an oxidized-corroded or damaged legal monetary object worth more than its base/assigned value? Can it be determined "mint-state" XX? Who should make that determination, the buyer? NOT!!(as defined by many) LOL

    I'm concerned about the past enactment of restrictive posting requirements on commercial intermediary sales sites, of firms without believed court allowable standards, as was seen in the PCI lawsuit. These conditions may require more restrictive/subjective RICO application used in the PCI action.

    I would believe grading to a written standard should allow more protection for all parties in a commercial transaction.

    JMHO
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  17. Evan8

    Evan8 A Little Off Center

    Whatever happend to coin grading as subjective opinions? So what if some people want to spend money to get the opinions of top tier graders. The opinions of NGC and PCGS just so happen to be most trusted.

    Not everyone is going to agree with everyone else's opinions, that's just the way it is.

    Now what happens when they start governing those opinions? Only the government believes they can make an opinion fact by writing a law. And therefore making an opposing opinion illegal to have.

    My own simple opinion: If i like the coin, im gonna buy it. Sometimes I like what the lable says, other times I dont. My own avatar for instance, I didnt agree with PCGS, so I got a second opinion from NGC and I agreed with them. As of right now I have another coin at PCGS because I didnt agree with NGC about it. I like haveing the ability to agree or disagree on grades.

    I dont want a set rule for what is or isnt gem. Im not the best grader in the world but hell, I have two eyes, I have knowledge about grading, and most importantly I have my own opinions.

    And besides, whats the point of this forum if we cant debate our opinions?
     
  18. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    WELL STATED!! i believe it's a majority view that you've objectively constructively presented your opinion in this post, and hopefully the future.
     
  19. JPeace$

    JPeace$ Coinaholic

    Well stated Evan. Pretty much how I feel. I have my preferred TPG, but I don't let that get in the way of a purchase. I've seen wildly over graded coins in top TPG holders. Like you, I use my eyes to determine the coin grade. Not saying that I'm perfect either.

    I simply don't see enough SEGS holdered coins to have an opinion about them. At one local show here in the Detroit Metro area, SEGS was present. Some of the dealers I spoke with absolutely believed in them and their abilities.

    Next show I'm at, I'll pay particular attention to coins in their holders and start to form an opinion. At the moment, I don't have enough experience with them to render one.
     
    Evan8 likes this.
  20. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Where's the photo of the S/S?
     
    40_mila_kokkina likes this.
  21. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    I have no crusade against them nor do I wish for any lawsuits.
    I wish that they would see the light and stop value/market grading and put the correct grade on a slab, start resorting to what made them the Top TPG's.

    Which was geared towards the collector. I would love to have all my coins slabbed; the ones I picked raw.
    I just want them graded to the standards I learned from. And Neither of them do it.
     
    Evan8 likes this.
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