Post a favorite SEGS graded specimen in your collection.

There’s been plenty of litigation already supporting the current system. PCI got hammered because they were over grading and grading counterfeits as real and then selling them for grossly inflated prices much like basement slabbers do.

https://coinweek.com/coin-clubs/coi...ly-2-million-under-federal-racketeering-laws/

The last thing we need is something else to be over litigated and over regulated. Courts dictating their own standards from judges that very likely don’t have a clue about grading wouldn’t reshape numismatics, it would absolutely kill it. There would be a mass exodus from the absurdity of it and just the disgust people would have with the decision. The best coins would go over seas to real markets the rest probably the melting pot

 

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Not having read the complete transcripts from that trial, I can't speak properly to your STATEMENTS, only assuming (you know what's said) that the evidence was properly established/proved. But from what I have read, I believe that a different informed judge could have discarded some of the accusations. If it can be proven that the same PCI litigation charges and more can be proven/levied against the current industry "leaders", would you support change? I suspect not, as stated in my post!

Virtually every "industry" of the same size is regulated and has standards to a greater degree. If the advocates for continued subjective biased acceptance expect passivity by buyers, it's believed they need to show change to a uniform industry standard from within.

It's just a matter of time before the Numismatic industry sees the litigation believed inevitable, and you may be correct that current processes are adequate.

Many of the premium coins seen in sales are stated to being acquired from OUS, maybe your proposed changes are a method for change.

Regardless, "time will tell"! We're in this believed sinking ship together, I'll support your objective proposals, if you'll just listen to mine without getting upset. Actions are believed better than words. At a miniscule rate I'm attempting constructive change, I'd enjoy your assistance! I'm a frustrated Libertarian Independent, so I'll be waiting!

P.S. Thank you for the article link. I'll send you one from the past regarding PCGS or "industry" leaders, if you'd like.

JMHO

 

I stated what the article reported which was what the ruling was.

Hypothetical are moot points because it isn't happening. The largest shareholders of CLCT the parent company of PCGS are investment groups, and last I saw it reported Mark Salzberg had the controlling share of NGC.

There's no sinking ship. Would you want the courts to dictate the exact engineering of a new building or a plane, how about giving exact directives to how a neurosurgeon performs an operation, or telling an artist where the next brush stroke has to be? Of course not because the courts lack the knowledge and skill to be able to do so and not everything is black and white just like the courts would be in way over their head trying to control grading.

If you really want to see a sinking ship get the courts to try and control grading, their will be a mass exodus and I will be right there with them selling everything I have as quick as possible while it still has any value at all.

 

Yes, TPGs have problems. No, the solution is not courts, legislation and regulation. I don’t know how old everyone is here, but I remember when regulation drove US railroads to the poorhouse, made airline flying totally unaffordable for a great deal of the population and kept natural gas in the ground through repeated energy crises.

What do you think the government would do with coin grading?

 

Whoever it was here (you know who you are) responsible for having knocked off my SEGS coins on eBay today may that bad karma you create come back at you.

 

If you were selling SEGS graded coins as anything but raw coins without a numeric grade, you were in violation of eBay rules. If one sells on eBay, he should follow those rules or expect to get tosssed.

 

So it was likely you. Well, assuming this was the case, I feel bad for you then that you have nothing better to do than report my coins. Pretty sad actually.

 

Hate to disappoint you, but it wasn’t me. If eBay is properly policing its own rules, no one needed to report it. eBay did it themselves. In case someone did report you, my hat’s off to them.

 

eBay lets you sell other slabs, you just can't show the grade or mention a numerical grade

 

I'm also a Libertarian, you're in good company here. I'm a free thinker.

 

Libertarians, like everyone else, still have to follow the rules when using someone else’s property (such as eBay’s site).

 

Sorry for the false accusation then. However someone reading this post must have reported it. Nothing else seems too likely.

 

True, problem is eBay is a big marketplace and doesn't know how to run a business. Wish a better, more open minded competitor would come for coins and drive them out.

 

Seems the major grading services don't want to compete, maybe they know how flimsy their operations are nowadays and feel scared that they will lose their status, profits and market share. One thing I hate about companies is as they get too big and powerful, they also get arrogant and lazy and don't want to have competition given to them in the marketplace to create a better product. We cannot have a free marketplace if competitors are not allowed to compete by the large established companies using the legal system to create rules and regulations against them and colluding with other businesses to restrict access to the marketplace. It sort of reminds me what the U.S. did in creating the Petro-Dollar Standard, forcing trade of oil worldwide with U.S. Dollars only to keep the U.S. Dollar artificially strong. This is a racket and the numismatic field largely seems to have lowered itself to these abysmal practices.

 

I apologize that we can't have a "meeting of minds". To make an intelligent decision about a legal process one would need to hear the arguments, not the rulings.

I'm working on several cases of Local, State, and Federal violations of statutes by groups of control within major organizations, working together to violate without anyone noticing. Usually the "owners" are not found guilty, because they are clueless, the method by which illegal change is accomplished.

Courts generally don't/shouldn't make laws, but 2 legal teams, a group of jurors, and a judge determine if Statutes, regulations, rules (laws) have been violated, what action should be implemented, and if punishment is due. The laws generally are determined by "representatives".

The tasks which you stated are regulated by "laws" created by representatives of communities, generally not courts.

Grades have been, and are generated, by the "industry", not the courts. A court would determine if individuals or groups within the industry have violated the laws defining a grade.

I may be perceived to err in my definitions, as understanding varies with knowledge, which one or both of us may relatively lack.

JMHO Enough Said!!

 

Another thing we're not talking about is each company is using their own grading system now. Some use terms like +, *, deep cameo, ultra cameo, mirror, details, number grade and details together, etc. Some companies just number grade without * or +. Some put on the slab "Choice For The Grade". There is no totally uniform grading system that exists now. Now is it best this way or should there be a standard that none may deviate from?

 

Nope, PCGS/NGC worrying about competition is like Coke and Pepsi worrying about RC cola or some generic brand. No one is remotely close to challenging PCGS or NGC. They have offices world wide on several continents and have been doing nothing but expanding.

There aren't hard laws for a grade, that's where you are going wrong.

Only NGC uses a *. Three of the four eBay TPGs use + grades. Deep Cameo and Ultra Cameo from PCGS and NGC are the same thing.

No first or second tier company does that.

 

By that logic, you are perfectly okay with NGC’s standard consistently calling a coin XF-40 and PCGS’ standard consistently calling the exact same coin AU-50. Or even VF-20 vs EF-45. This liberal mindset will make these grade designations worthless if there is no standard to back it up and no one to hold them accountable. This isn’t about capitalism; it’s about providing security in the coin market through (supposedly) consistently grading coins to a standard.

 

As long as NGC consistently calls the coin XF-40 and PCGS consistently calls it AU-50 or even VF-20 vs EF-45 I have absolutely no problem with the different companies grading to a different scale. I can easily make those transitions when looking at the coin myself. The problem arises when they don't grade to their OWN scale.

 

No one ever said they had to work together. Each and every one of the company's decided to start grading from a set of standards. These standards were in place for much longer than any of the company's have been in business.
Now we have AU coins being graded as Mint State, EF as AU, VF as XF and on down the line. Maybe you can enlighten us on why this practice should be accepted?

The standards don't need to change. What does need to change is their manipulation of these standards to fit how they feel in a certain time period.

Making up new rules to fit there need for steady submissions has just about literally thrown the term grading right out the door.
They should just call it valuing, and let the public understand what they are doing. None of us would be arguing about grades anymore we could just determine if they are valuing the coins correctly.

This will also eliminate a need to publish any kind of transparency.
They will be able to do what they have been doing for almost twenty years now with out the backlash from the numismatic industry. Dealers and pro top two can keep admiring them for over valuing coins so that they can take advantage of the buyers.

Collectors can then buy and submit coins to TPG's that hold their ground and grade with actual integrity using the standards that have been passed down for generations.

The collector can then assess the company's for what they are.
The TPG's that know how to grade and will give you their best opinion. And the TPG's that are trying to rip off the unsuspected buyer. Yes, I said rip off because that is what the company's at the top are doing. They have no back bone. Wait they do have a backbone it is money and profit. That is what drives there business's. With out over grading and resubmissions they could never profit the way they do. And how do you get resubmissions? Continually change and loosen/tighten your standards so that Mehh coins are now gem. And Gem coins are now top POPS. Detail coins make straight grades and lower value coins make the next grade up. And don't forget never be transparent, keep the public guessing.

I don't believe that there can ever be or will ever be a legality issue.
We as collectors have the authority and the ability to shut down bad practices. We have the choice to send our coins to whom ever we choose.
It is the Dealers that are floating the top two's boat. It is the Dealers and the TPG's that are working for profit, not the collector.
The collector wants a nice and correctly graded coin. The dealer only looks at the TPG'S that get them the highest dollar amount. They prey on those that are uninformed/ uneducated. I have seen plenty of them play dumb even though I have had in depth conversations with them on the subject of grading.

If the public that has zero interest in actual numismatics continues to feed this out of control industry, we are all in trouble and why even collect?

It would be up to us collectors to police the TPG's not an branch of government. We need to pick the TPG that best suits our needs, not for money but for integrity. We need to be educated, we as collectors ( if there is enough of us that believe in standards left) control who is doing their job correctly. It is our job to admonish bad practices.