Post a coin and a fourée of the same type.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by John Anthony, Nov 10, 2018.

  1. John Anthony

    John Anthony Ultracrepidarian Supporter

    Here is a denarius of Tiberius (the famous Tribute Penny) and its decrepit evil cousin...

    tribute and fouree.jpg

    1. Tiberius, AD 14-37
    AR Denarius, 20mm, 3.8g, 6h; Lugdunum mint, AD 36-37.
    Obv.: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS; Laureate bust right.
    Rev.: PONTIF MAXIM; Livia (as Pax) seated right on throne with ornate legs, holding long scepter and olive branch, single line below chair.
    Reference: RIC I 30, p. 95.

    2. Tiberius, AD 14-37
    Fourée Denarius, Unknown mint, imitating Lyon, AD 14-37.
    Obv.: TI CAESAR DIVI AVG F AVGVSTVS, Laureate bust right.
    Rev.: PONTIF MAXIM, Livia or Pax seated right.
    Reference: cf. RIC I p. 95 for official types.

    I bought the fourée way back when for only a few bucks, because after all, who would want such a hideous thing? Its thin veneer of virtue-signaling silver has worn off to reveal the baseness of its true character, and some bronze rot set in over time. The coin is an apt metaphor for the ugliness of deception. However, at the time I bought it I had never seen a fourée Tribute Penny, and I haven't come across one since. I thought for sure the coin would disintegrate over time, but it has been stable for years, not evincing any further progression of the bronze disease. (The official example cost me a slightly few more shekels than the counterfeit.)

    So there you have it, the good in one coin, the bad and the ugly in the other. Do you have any examples of official coins and their fourée counterparts in your collection?
     
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  3. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    LOL, cool thread. Kinda The Good, Bad, and the Ugly with the Bad gone home! :)

    upload_2018-11-10_14-51-22.png

    The Good:
    RI AR Den Julia Domna 200 CE Felicitas Isis Horus RIC 577.jpg
    RI AR Den Julia Domna 200 CE Felicitas Isis Horus RIC 577


    The Bad... uh, no... The UGLY!!!
    RI Julia Domna 194-217 Fouree AR Plated Den Isis Horus.jpg
    RI Julia Domna 194-217 Fouree AR Plated Den Isis Horus

     
  4. Ryro

    Ryro Life is like a box of ancient coins. Supporter

    Great coin and fun idea!
    Early on I thought these coins were celebrating the GREAT general Marius. Oh the sadness finding that there were no coins made for someone who did sooooooo much all while being a novice homo (if you don't know what it means, it doesn't mean that;))
    Anyway, here's a coin from some old schmuck with the same name as the ancient hero.
    CollageMaker Plus_201845214744625.png
    CollageMaker Plus_20186121636509.png

    C.MariusC.f.Capito
    81 BC. RomeSerratus AR
    17mm., 3,63g.
    Draped bust of Ceres right,
    wearing wreath of grain ears,
    anchor below chin / Ploughman
    with yoke of oxen left, inverted T
    above.
    nearly very fine
    Crawford 378/1c; Sydenham
    744b; Maria 9.Former Savoca
    C.MariusC.f.Capito
    81 BCE. AR plated Serrate
    Denarius (17mm, 3.94 g,
    6h). Rome mint. Wreathed
    and draped bust of Ceres
    right; LXXVIII at end of
    legend, [cornucopia] below
    chin / Husbandman with
    yoke of oxen ploughing left;
    LXXVIII above. Crawford
    378/1c; Sydenham 744b;
    Maria 9.
    L.
     
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  5. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Yeah, George Carlin covered that in the 70's :D

    upload_2018-11-10_15-56-48.png
     
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  6. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    The depictions of Medusa look similar in pictures but the fourée lacks depth. The reverse of the fourée is a mess. The horse heads look alien.

    plancus-both.jpg plancus_fourree.png
    For those not familar, both are from Republican Rome, L. Plautius Plancus, 47 BC.
     
  7. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    If you are buying fourrees, you can show a little preference for coins with artistic style and pealing patterns or you can just go for what comes your way. I like the style of my fourree better than my solid coin.
    rb0930bb0026.jpg rb0920bb0033.jpg

    For this thread, just how exact is required to be a match? My fourree Taras stater is again much more attractive than my solid coin.
    g10150bb0320.jpg g10200bb0107.jpg

    I do not recommend people buy fourrees until they get to a point in the hobby that they understand what they are doing.
     
  9. Ryro

    Ryro Life is like a box of ancient coins. Supporter

    I do not recommend people buy fourrees until they get to a point in the hobby that they understand what they are doing.[/QUOTE]

    Reading between the lines @dougsmit : More fourees for us:pompous::cigar:;)
    Jk, sound advice...but still, #more4us
     
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  10. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Sadly, mine is so decayed as to not have even abit of its silver skin left...

    Septimius Severus - Dea Caelestis Fourree 2095.jpg
    Septimius Severus - Dea Caelestis 47.jpg

    But, it really warms the heart to see these zombies paired up with their more wholesome partners. The undead need love too... :mask::kiss:

    00zombies.jpg
     
  11. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus Supporter

    Damn it! I'm just not finding my 2 EID MAR to take a pictures and put here on the thread...
     
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  12. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    This fouree is a mule between an obverse of Orbiana and a reverse of her mother-in-law:

    Orbiana Fourree.jpg

    Genuine Orbiana:

    Orbiana Denarius.jpg

    Genuine Julia Mamaea:

    Mamaea FECVND AVGVSTAE seated Denarius.jpg
     
  13. Cucumbor

    Cucumbor Dombes collector Supporter

    Fun thread. I have yet to find a solid silver to pair my fouree, or a fouree for one of my denarii

    Q
     
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  14. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    I don't have solid coins to match my fourrees. Can I still play? :shy: (You know I'm going to anyway :D)

    Like many of these ancient forgeries, this fourree denarius has a believable style.

    [​IMG]
    Roman Republic, Lucius Aurelius Cotta
    105 BCE
    Fourree AR serrate denarius, 20 mm, 3.8 gm
    Obv: draped bust of Vulcan right, wearing laureate pileus; tongs and star behind; all within wreath and dotted border
    Rev: eagle standing on thunderbolt, head left; L·COT below, V to right; all within laurel wreath and dotted border
    Ref: c.f. Crawford 314/1c; Sydenham 577a; Aurelia 21b
    formerly slabbed

    A solid example from CNG's archives:
    [​IMG]


    I don't have a solid coin to match the next fourree in part because it would take two coins. The obverse copies one coin and the reverse another-- not an uncommon situation with Roman Republican fourrees.

    [​IMG]
    Roman Republic fourrée mule denarius
    L. Antestius Gragulus, 136 BCE, and C. Renius, 138 BCE

    ancient forgery, 3.18 gm
    Obv: Roma helmeted head right, * below chin, GRAG behind
    Rev: Juno Caprotina in a biga of goats, C・RENI below, ROMA in exergue
    Ref: Obverse S.115, Cr.238/1, Syd.451, RSC Antestia 9; Reverse S.108, Cr.231/1, Syd.432, RSc Renia 1
    Short fictional story of how the coin may have come to exist

    Solid examples, both from CNG's archives: (Gragulus obverse, Renius reverse; I think the Renius reverse style is better on my fake than on the official coin shown below :D)

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  15. akeady

    akeady Well-Known Member

    Here's an example of Crawford 141/1 - TOD denarius:
    [​IMG]

    And a fourrée:
    [​IMG]

    I think I posted about these before - todus or todillus is a small wren-like bird and this is what's found on the solid silver examples. The fourrée examples have a different, bigger bird.

    ATB,
    Aidan.
     
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  16. Marsyas Mike

    Marsyas Mike Well-Known Member

    Interesting post, and lots of interesting coins here. I don't really collect fourrée coins, but a few have come my way. This post provoked me to see if I have any matches, and I found only one. Philip the Arab with ANNONA AVGG reverse, RIC 28c.

    The difference between these is pretty obvious, the fourrée is undersized and weighs only 2.20 grams. Hard to believe anybody was fooled, but it probably looked better when new.

    Am I wrong in thinking fourrées from the antoninianus era are somewhat scarcer than the denarii? I also have a Gordian III that looks as if it were silver-washed (like an Aurelian, etc.) rather than a more orthodox fourrée with the silver foil over a copper core.

    Philip I ANNONA fourree & not Nov 18 (2).JPG
     
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  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member Supporter

    TIF says the truth. It even seems that some RR moneyers are more involved in fourrees than others. This is my solid example of L. Antestius Gragulus (not as nice as the CNG coin TIF posted but that should surprise noone.
    r11000bb0238.jpg
    This is my M. Aburius Geminus (CNG hs sold dozens of these common coins)
    r11180bb0239.jpg

    ...and, finally, the fourree combining the L. Antestius Gragulus obverse with the M. Aburius Geminus reverse. I doubt there is a solid mule matching this fourree.
    r11090bb0223.jpg
    Does this make TIF's coin and mine cousins or half brothers? What we need now is a Renius/Geminus or some other permutation of the three. I would not be surprised if they exist.
     
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  18. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    I have HALF my Mule in coins. Does it mean that it is Half-Assed?

    upload_2018-11-11_14-39-6.png
    RR fourée mule anon Q Fabius Labeo denarius 18mm 2.9g after 124 BC Roma X Jupiter Quadriga tbolt scepter Craw 159 obv; Craw 273-1 rev


    Crawford 159 Obv:
    Nope! Nary a Denarius of this in my collection.


    The other Half? Crawford 273-1 Rev:
    RR Fabius Labeo 124 BCE AR Den Quadriga last X or XVI S 148 Cr 273-1.jpg
    RR Fabius Labeo 124 BCE AR Den Quadriga last X or XVI S 148 Cr 273-1

    Yup, half of a Mule, ergo Half-Assed!
     
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  19. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Beavis and Butt-Head.jpg
     
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  20. Johndakerftw

    Johndakerftw Mr. Rogers is My Hero

    Bro has the coin, L. Rocius Fabatus denarius:

    IMG_2450.JPG IMG_2451.JPG

    I have the fouree:

    Attachment-6.jpeg Attachment-7.jpeg

    :cool:

    Erin
     
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  21. Multatuli

    Multatuli Homo numismaticus Supporter

    Maybe the most common Augustus’ denarius, but except for one RR denarius of Gens Ancilia that I have with the copper nucleus without a minimal trace of silver (I guess, need to confirm), this is the only with a brother fourrée.
    The original:
    0C10D811-EBC2-46AD-9D5D-3D661FEA13E4.jpeg 4713F4AC-B7DD-4F3D-AECC-028FF493A4F8.jpeg
    Fourrée:
    5E3A27C5-7608-49B4-B432-12A99288B8CF.jpeg
    6526623D-6FCF-4890-83A8-252833CD8DB0.jpeg
     
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