[Poll] Are Auction Houses Perpetuating Fakes by Selling Unsigned Electrotypes?

I won't go into any details because it's not my intent to "shame" any specific seller or auction house for selling an electrotype but I have seen several of them come up on more than one major auction and have been thinking about it for a while now. Is selling unmarked electrotypes bad for the hobby?

Seems to me that this would be the most effective way to get your hands on a relatively cheap, very desirable coin in a super high grade that could then be used to make a transfer die to make some convincing fakes! Am I missing something obvious that makes my suspicions unfounded?

If your not sure what I'm talking about when I say electrotype you can read more here.

https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/550/

And here.

http://www.coinworld.com/news/world...e-the-source-for-fake-ancient-coins.all.html#

If that is the case then why don't auction houses just refuse to consign coins that haven't been marked as a copy? Do some of them do this? I know there is a legitimate collector market for electrotypes (they are pretty cool after all) but how many people would really be upset if your copy really said "copy" on it?

I mean, if someone wanted to write "coffee cup" on my coffee cup or "shoe" on the bottom of my shoe I wouldn't be upset. I'd just be like... yup... that's my shoe alright

What are your thoughts friends?

 

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Hmm. I don't know. The only ones I've paid much attention to are the Robert Ready signed electrotypes.

The history behind the reason for electrotypes is interesting and thinking about it now, I don't have a problem with these being sold without marks. Might some get sold to buyers who think they are authentic ancient coins? Yep, but it isn't hard to determine that a coin is an electrotype so buyer beware (know the coin or know the seller).

 

Electrotypes have odd weights and a seam. See http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/electro.htm

It is possible to use them as part of a faking making process. Genuine coins are just a good for making fakes. The electrotype just lowers the price. It is also possible to request plaster casts for even less money than the electrotype.

You love bacon.

 

Most of the electrotypes I have seen offered have been uniface and historical (like the Robert Ready ones). I see nothing wrong with them.

 

I didnt know this. Interesting. Also thanks for the link Ed.

...also yes!

 

I'm uncertain. It seems to me that a good faker can make a transfer die from real or electrotypes. Like @TIF said

But I love bacon

 

I only love bacon when it is super-crisp, almost burnt! I usually try to make electrotypes of the super-crisp bacon...


I don't seem to do as well with electrotyping bacon...


So, here is a real coin:

Campania CAPUA AE 14.5mm 216-211 Hera Oscan Grain ear Hannibal capital Italia SNG Fr 517 SNG ANS 219 HN Italy 500 EE Clain Stefanelli

 

Lol

 

an electrotype is on my list!

 

MMMM Bacon!

 

I think it's OK. I think there are worse practices out there, like taking consignments from people who glue sand to their coins to 'enhance' them (fake patinas), or are cavalier about selling outright fakes.

 

I love porcine lipids

 

Like @TIF and @dougsmit and others, I don't have a problem with them but I haven't been collecting them either......except this one I purchased sometime in early 2015 from FORVM----believed to be from the British Museum, circa 1860:


Electroplate Replica, Lebedos, Ionia, c. 160 - 140 B.C.

72035. Electroplate silver tetradrachm, Stephanophoric type; cf. Amandry Lebedos, Group IV, 25 (D5/R-); BMC Ionia p. 154, 1; Boston MFA Supp. 170; SNG Cop -; SNGvA -, gVF, 16.067 grams, 30.7 mm, die axis 0o, magistrate Apollodotos, c. 160 - 140 B.C.; obverse head of Athena right, wearing triple-crested Attic helmet with laurel branch above visor; reverse Owl standing right, head facing, on club, between two filleted cornucopias overflowing with grapes, grain and fruit, LEBEDIWN above, APOLL-ODOTOS below, all within wreath

 

Interesting. The above poll and comments have set my mind at ease a bit. If I were inclined to make a fake (I'm not) I was thinking the first thing I would do is try to find a beautiful example of an electrotype to make a transfer die. I read an article a while back that spooked me about electrotypes (same site @Ed Snible links to).

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/examples/fakekatane01.htm


This image is from CNG and they disagree with the opinion in the linked article about this coin. I don't know if it is genuine or not but my thought after reading the article was that electrotypes could be used to make fakes that were die matchable to museum examples!

Of course, for me it's all academic. I would never be able to afford something like the above and it might only be a danger with the very high end coins. Perhaps for most fakes it's just as easy to use another method and the danger is therefore small?

The results of the poll and comments seem to indicate two things to me right now; one less important and one more important.

The less important?

I would make a terrible criminal!



The second and much more important piece of information is just confirmation of something I've suspected for a while now.

Our friend @lordmarcovan does indeed like bacon.

Perhaps my next give away will include bacon!

Oh I almost forgot!... Please Post Your Electrotypes! Marked or no

 

Okay


KYRENAIKA, Kyrene
modern copy by electrotypist Robert Ready
host coin, c. 410-400 BCE, acquired by the British Museum in 1872
AR "tetradrachm", 27 mm, 16.64 gm
Obv: Bearded head of Zeus-Ammon, wearing tainia with uraeus-like ornament at forehead, facing slightly left within laurel wreath
Rev: silphium plant; K V P A N A (split between fields, retrograde K)
Edge: initials R R
Ref: BMC 77 (host coin); B.V. Head. A guide to the principal coins of the Greeks, from circ. 700 B.C. to A.D. 270. London. 1965 pl. 20, 61 (host coin); host coin BM accession number 1872,0709.361; B.V. Head. A Guide to the Select Greek and Roman Coins Exhibited in Electrotype, London. 1880. Period III C #44.



The writeup, including a funny story about my bidding name in this auction:
https://www.cointalk.com/threads/sometimes-a-copy-will-have-to-suffice.272376/

And because the poll proved that bacon is very important to ancient coin collectors, highlights from a 2010 Bacon Throwdown at a friend's house

Bacon S'mores:


Bacon Firecracker Shrimp (shrimp, bacon, cream cheese, pickled jalepenos in wonton wrapper, fried in bacon grease, served with bacon ponzu dipping sauce)


Bacon-wrapped parmesan-stuffed dried plums (sounds fancier than prunes), adapted from a similar recipe using dates. Super easy and extremely yummy, albeit lacking a visual wow factor.

 

Yuuuum! To both the coin and the recipes. Out of curiousity which one was yours and did you win?

 

all of them and another four or five not shown

Hello? Bacon S'mores? Of course I won. Duh.

 

I chuckled through your "ridiculous" Pegasi polls earlier this month. I'm not sure I'll be able to post a poll without at least one silly possible answer from now on so this one was in honor of you

This is what happens when Curtis gets bored waiting for his connection flight and decides to play around with photoshop for iOS in an attempt to be funny

Unfortunely the mobile version is not very good at editing coin photos so it's use is pretty much relegated to me making juvenile memes