[Poll-10] #11 Dafydd vs #22 panzerman (Round 1) CIT 2018

Welcome to Round 1 of CIT 2018! If you are unaware of the tournament I invite you to get caught up with all the fun on the following link:

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/ancients-it’s-time-the-second-annual-coin-imperator-tournament-2018.320328/



I want to give a special thank you to the participants for volunteering to play the game. We have a great group of people here at CT

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#11 @Dafydd


VESPASIAN
AR Denarius, Rome mint
Obv.: IMP CAESAR VESPASIANVS AVG, laureate head right.
Rev.: Judaea seated right on ground in attitude of mourning, trophy set on shields behind her; IVDAEA in exergue.

Price: $200 (Weighted average from a lot of 10 costing $432)

Why It's Cool:
The reason I have chosen this coin over several far more “exotic” purchases in the past twelve months is because it really satisfied several collecting aspirations and created a warm glow when it arrived as I didn’t really expect to own it. I appreciate this was a coin purchased as a group but my bid was solely for the Vespasian denarius not the others as some I already own and the others were secondary to my task of acquiring this coin. I will explain.

I have long been a fan of Vespasian and this was revitalised some years ago reading Robert Fabbri’s excellent Vespasian fiction series. Changing my collecting interests from milled coinage to ancients a couple of years ago lead me to buy my first Vespasian denarius as part of my “12 Caesars” collection and others followed but I really wanted to find a decent “Judea Capta” denarius at a reasonable cost.

Vespasian always struck me ( if you’ll excuse the pun) as a solid no nonsense sort of man that achieved fame by merit not infamy. The expression “the fox changes his fur but not his naure” that was made about Vespasian appears to be well made. He is remembered as being a great soldier, affable and mainly impervious to corruption and made significant changes for the better in Rome. Vespasian was also renowned for his miserly ways and actually joked about it and this was well known. In Mathew Dennison’s book “The Twelve Caesars” he reminds us that at Vespasians’ funeral a mime player wearing the emperor’s death mask assailed the procurators with “How much will this funeral cost me?” The response “an impressively large sum” provoked the response “Give me a fraction of that and be done with the body and hurl it in the Tiber!” Clearly there was some wit and affection here that I cannot imagine being expressed at the funerals of the majority of Vespasian’s predessors.

There is no doubt that the Jewish rebellion in Judea was a turning point for Vespasian and without his success in Judea he would not have become Rome’s 10th Caesar and his succession was not anticpated by Nero which probably kept him out of harms way.

This is not a scarce coin as it was struck for 25 years by Vespasian and his two sons and was struck in 48 variations and numerous denominations. I have wanted an example for some time but those that came up were either outside of my budget or didn’t appeal to me because they were off-struck and I wanted the whole Judea legend intact.

When this one appeared in a group with an estimate of $260 – 390 (£200-£300) I thought I would make a mid estimate bid on the basis that the coin was Good Fine in my estimation, it was a reasonable strike that was not off centre and I had seen several for sale at around $250.00 I reasoned that if I could buy the lot at my bid price I would achieve my objective at a reasonable price and would have nine other coins to keep or trade. I didn’t really expect to win the lot as collectively the 10 coins would retail at over $600 but sometimes you have to say that you need to be in it to win it!

We have an expression over here that “when you want a cop or a bus you won’t find one but when you don’t need one three will turn up together!” Needless to say after this one turned up I have seen several better ones but I’m happy with this one.

So, I obtained my Judea Capta denarius at a reasonable price that met my aspirations with the bonus of another nine coins for my collection. Not the greatest condition coin but a great coin of historical significance for me that filled a need.

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#22 @panzerman


Kingdom of Macedonia
AV Quarter Stater struck at Pella Mint circa 340-28BC 2.15g. 15mm. NGC MS-5/5 strike 4/5 surface
Obv. Head of Herakles right/ wearing lion's skin headdress.
Rev. Club and Bow/ Below facing lion's head
Cf. Le Rider 1 (D-/R-1) obv. die unrecorded/ Extremely Rare/ Unique

Price: $3,776

Why It's Cool:
Why do I think this coin was a bargain?... Well $3200 (+auction additives) is very cheap for a AV coin in MS/ that is unique (only one known).

Historical Interest: Even though I cheer for the Persian Empire. One has to admire what Philip II accomplished in only 23 years. He turned an unimportant, backward kingdom into a regional power. He started by reforming the army, introducing the "phalanx". He then crushed the Athenian and Theban armies at Chaeronea in 338BC. Then he established the, League of Corinth, with him as Commander in Chief. While working on a campaign versus the Persian Empire, he was killed by one of his bodyguards. His son would complete his dream. Philip also competed in the Olympics in equestrian events!

This coin was stuck at Pella, the capital of ancient Macedonia, and can be dated to a time that spans the end of Philip II's reign to the high point of Alexander's invasions of the east (when gold to mint beautiful coins was being sent back to Pella from captured Persian treasuries). The obverse shows the familiar Hercules in lion skin and the reverse features his bow and club and designates the coin as in the name "of Philip" (ΦΙΛΙΠΠΟΥ).

So in short it's a gold coin, in near perfect condition, that is datable to Alexander the Great's lifetime. To me that is pretty cool

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A Gentle Reminder
We have had a remarkably fun and friendly tournament so far and I want to thank all of our members who have contributed and commented Let's continue to do a good job of keeping our tournament friendly! Instead of focusing comments too much on why you didn't vote for one coin over the other try to focus on why you did vote for the one you chose!

Remember that everyone gets 3 votes to choose which coin you think comes out on top in each of the three categories. With that I will open the floor to comments, pile-ons and shameless lobbying.

 

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Panzerman - you have an awesome car and then you slap some gold down.. one of a kind gold... come on!!!

 

@panzerman you have some great taste when it comes to coins!

 

Two completely different coins with great historical backgrounds, but for eye appeal you can't go past Panzer's fantastic eye candy......but I will give you the heads up @panzerman......

Being RARE means nothing in the bargain category, just look at my poll.

 

Yep - you gotta play to the crowd!!!
What a great competition... something for everyone.. awesome!

 

I was initially surprised to see another Vespasian "Judaea Capta" denarius being played in the first round, but really, I suppose I shouldn't be... they're historically significant, capture the imagination with their iconography, and are well within the reach of most collectors. What's not to like?

On the other hand, minty gold is minty gold, and even if I don't give any extra points for an unrecorded obverse die (unless there's some other uniqueness I'm missing out here), the Macedonian 1/4 stater is the clear winner in the looks department.

 

Did the NGC description use the word Philip or just Macedon?

 

Would B&W pictures change the vote on eye appeal ?
I'm pretty sure yellow has an effect on our perception of beauty. That 1/4 stater is a beauty !

On the other hand IVDAEA CAPTA coins are must haves, whatever the condition...

Q

 

@Dafydd , great job with your Vespasian IUDAEA! Super write-up and a super coin! Thanks!

@panzerman , yours is a wonderful gold piece! Nice.

Here is an AE Philip II:

Makedon Philip II AE 18 Apollo - Youth Horseback spear hd below 359-356 BCE RIGHT-RIGHT 18mm 6.2g SNG ANS 850-1
Ex: SteveX6 collection

I have not captured a IUDAEA yet, however, here is a Vespasian that I really like:

RI Vespasian 69-79 CE AE Dupondius Felicitas stdg caduceus cornucopia sinister left

 

Great coin @panzerman - lots of eye appeal and interesting historically.

 

@panzerman, can you tell us what makes this quarter stater of Philip II, Pella mint, unique? Is it because of the arrangement of the facing lion's head, club, bow, and ΦIΛIΠΠOY? Yours is arranged name / club / bow / lion. Here's one with the reverse arrangement: lion / bow / club / name, from Roma XIII, 23 March 2017:


Also, you forgot to include BP (18%) in your purchase price. $3776 was your total cost for purposes of this tournament.

Also, is your coin the same coin catalogued by LeRider, or is it a second example of the variety?

The catalog doesn't show the whole slab (yay for the New York Sale catalog designer having some sense) but for other Philip II quarter staters the NGC label looks like this:



...

Regardless of these little details, it's a lovely coin, Panzerman.

@Dafydd, fabulous history with that Judaea Capta! You definitely got a deal on it too

 

@panzerman I initially thought this was a different coin but it looks like the same coin as yours: it had a black mark which was cleaned off (I can't tell if the ear scrape is still on your coin but I think it is). In any event, you can add a pedigree of Triton VII, lot 129 from Jan 12, 2004. It was estimated at $1500 and sold for $1600:

 

Sorry for late reply, just got home from work an hour ago.... the coin is #70.

 

Dafydd, love your coin! Your writeup/ history is first class
I do not have any coins from Vespasian

 

Thanks @AncientJoe! You are absolutely correct, that coin was in Triton VII. Amazing it went from a "Nice EF" to a MS
John

 

I'm a little late in getting to the announcements on some of these... my apologies!

Results
#11 Dafydd - 70
#22 panzerman - 101 Winner

Dafydd came out ahead in both the interest and bargain categories but @panzerman swoops in with a big score in the eye appeal category to come out on top in the overall score. Congrats and thank you to both players

@panzerman will meet the winner of the @Severus Alexander vs @Jwt708 match in Round 2!

 

Congratulations to Dafydd for a great round! You beat me in two categories, well played and your coin, writeup, first class!!!!! I am glad to share the passion of coin collecting with you, and the others on this forum. Curtisimo, fantastic job on organizing this competition
I am now heading out to cut grass, in 32 celsius heat!
John

 

Stay safe and well hydrated my friend see you back in Round 2

 

Congrats to both contestants
@panzerman, at least Germany accesses to round 2 this time ( )

Q

 

Congrats to both on an interesting match.