`Political' Coins

Sounds similar to the `quality' one I showed. It really is a beautiful piece of engraving, but a bit characterless.

Certainly does sound like someone (perhaps a little bit more politically motivated) had a bash at significantly enhancing the timbre of the message.

The hand carved ones are a bit more difficult to come across, but they do pop up every now and again.

I honestly don't think there are all that many `out there'. Well, not in relation to the extent of the disenchantment with Napoleon III (le Miserable). What we do have in quantity are modern produced `brass' struck `Vampire Francais' copying the bronze issue of the same type. The struck bronze (using 10 centimes blanks) are not particularly hard to find, but they still usually command prices in excess of €20. The carved ones usually cost a bit more again.

However, just try finding a carved example on a 5 centimes coin, or even rarer, on a 50 centimes silver coin (about dime size)! I'm still looking for the latter.

Regardless of Michael's fair warning concerning time frames of production, they are all `collectable'...even the brass ones. While i'm all for `evidence' as to originality, there are times when you have only the strength of your own deductive reasoning to determine whether a piece is genuine or not. If there are any experts in this particular field, then they keep themselves fairly well hidden in the main. At times the call is down to `is it possibly genuine?' as opposed to `it's definitely not'. Sometimes it is far easier to prove `definitely not' than `definitely'. I believe that most of the pieces available are from the period immediately after Sedan. I also think I would be able to tell a modern attempt at carving. However, who knows. ;-)

Ian

 

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A million thanks for the advice.

One other question, that will definitely save me money.

How do you tell the bronze (original tokens) from the brass restrikes? I have seen a lot of the tokens, but no idea which are which. The restrikes are presumably also somewhat old, since I so not recall seeing new-looking ones.

I had it in my mind that the engraved ones were commonly seen, but maybe it’s because I have seen the same ones over and over while doing my research.

 

Make that almost always! I'm frequently able to conclude directly from an EBay seller's pictures that a supposed Japanese coin is positively fake, but I've yet to see the picture that can convince me beyond a reasonable doubt that a coin I haven't seen, measured and weighed is genuine.

 

I've got a brass one somewhere. It's what the french call `cuivre jaune' or `yellow copper'. I'll dig it out, scan it and post it here when i get the chance. Once you've seen one you won't mistake it for a bronze one, of that i'm certain. Bear in mind the original struck `Vampire Francais' were done on the blanks used for the true 10c pieces. the `brass' ones stand out and apart from them like a sore thumb.

As to the frequency of `sightings' you mention. It's a strange one that! For example, there was one particular jeton I had been looking for for about three years. Never saw one! gave up on it, then all of a sudden there were three of them listed by different people on the same day. I ended up buying the three of them and all for a song. That must have encouraged a wholesale cleanout because for the next month or so it seemed like there were loads of them suddenly appearing on the market from nowhere. No fakes either. Strangely enough, rather than depressing the prices even lower than what I had paid, it seemed to have the opposite effect.

 

I know what you mean Roy. I usually err on the side of reticence in concluding something to be `genuine'. However i'm rarely so reticent in calling something a fake once I see that either there's stuff there that shouldn't be or there's stuff missing that shouldn't be. On occasions of `doubt' I have even gone as far as buying the item just to get it `in the hand' and see for myself close up (it's not as strange a concept as it might appear ) with the viewpoint of `education'.

One can but hone ones `skills' of observation and recognise that no matter how good or smart we like to think we are, there is always plenty of scope for improvement.

 

Have a look at what the expectations are for this type of piece in france
(data courtesy of cgb.fr)

Each item on the list is clickable and brings up an image along with a description (in french)

More interestingly for you, have a look at the starting prices. Personally, i think they are a bit on the high side for todays exconomic climate, but these figures have been beaten in the recent past.

The last one on the list is an uncommon struck variety, with the head of a pig obverse.

http://tinyurl.com/4fy8z

 

Thanks for the link! Great info there. I guess I should plan on being outbid quite a bit if I am looking for one for 20 euros.

 

(nothing to be said)

 

A statement about nothing that seems to be lost in its own insignificance?

 

Here's my one and only brass `Napoleon le Miserable/ Vampire Francais' on a 5 centimes size flan. To be honest, I haven't a clue when they were produced.

 

There is probably a measurable weight difference, but I'm not sure which copper alloy is heavier - brass or bronze, and anyhow someone would have to directly compare one of each. Of course brass seldom tarnishes to a bronze-like color, so that would be a good start in attribution.

 

Thanks for the photo – that helps quite a bit. The brass restrike does not have anywhere near the quality of the struck tokens I have seen.

I also have a pretty good eye normally for how metals tarnish, so in many cases I could probably tell bronze from brass, but the difference in detail seems to be the main giveaway here.

 

I have seen quite a few coins of the South African Republic (mostly 1/-'s & 2/-'s) where someone has carved a hat & a smoking pipe on Kruger's portrait.I think that this is a very unusual form of art.It is called Trench Art,as it is believed to have been done by soldiers fighting in the trenches during World War I.

 

That's the brit's for you, during the Boer war. I've a couple of the Freddy Kruger 1/-'s so treated. one with him wearing a smokers hat and jaket, with a pipe. the other with a Feldt hat and pipe. Both are only very lightly engraved / carved as if with a very fine sewing needle 9which would fit with the circumstances at the time.

Sadly, they are so lightly carved that the `work' doesn't come out too well in a scan. The examples I have are fairly amateur though but tell a tale nine the less.

 

Ian,the name of the President of the South African Republic was Paul Kruger,or in full,Stephanus Johannes Paulus Kruger,or as he was known in the Afrikaans language 'Oom Paul' (Uncle Paul).On some of the coins,the designer's initials 'O.S.' appears.To Kruger's opponents,this implied that Kruger was an ox,as the word 'Os' is the Afrikaans for 'ox'.When Paul Kruger became President of the South African Republic in 1883,the President of the Orange Free State was Sir Johannes Brand,who was knighted both for mediating the end of the 1st Boer War (1880-81),& for his meticulous administration,which is why the Orange Free State was known as 'The Model Republic'.If you want some more information on South African history,please let me know.

 

I know of some coins that were used to carry a political message - modern Irish pre-Euro coins that have had the date '1690' & 'UVF' engraved on them.
The date '1690' represents the year that King William III of England/II of Scotland defeated his deposed father-in-law,King James II of England/VII of Scotland at the Battle of the Boyne.The initials
'UVF' is that of the Ulster Volunteer Force,which was originally formed by Sir Edward Carson (later Lord Carson) prior to World War I to oppose both plans for 'Home Rule' & Sinn Fein/I.R.A.They were encouraged to join en masse as the 36th (Ulster) Division.They were slaughtered at the Battle of the Somme in 1916.The modern Ulster Volunteer Force was formed in 1966 to fight against Sinn Fein/I.R.A.
As I am a Protestant in the Anglican Church of New Zealand,I can understand what they were fighting for - Keeping Ulster a British nation & fighting against the terrorist regime in Ireland as well as Sinn Fein/I.R.A. Although the U.V.F. has been proscribed,they did have some Catholics,as did the Ulster Defence Association.

 

Aidan my dear chap. My use of `Freddy' was as a joke. I know enough to be getting on with about S African History, but if at any time you want to know more about humour or coins, just ask ..... ;-)

Ian

 

I'd love to see examples of these. I've honestly never heard of them before now, although I am fully appreciative of the significance of the date and history behind such a statement which also reminisces of the guarding of `old 'Derry's walls'.

Ian

 

I have one of these UVF coins (or is it UDF??).

I also have a pair of coins, large pennies, one with a Catholic and one with a Protestant stamping. I bought these as a pair, and I believe them, (as I did when I bought them), to be modern recreations. The stampings are similar, same type style, etc., and the chances of having matched pair of period coins from opposite sides of the fence seems a bit unlikely.

I have some great modern euro political coins. If I ever get photo ability I will post some pictures. They might offend some people in Europe, though, as the messages are quite current.

 

I can well understand that some people may indeed take offence from such pieces given that that is probably what most were designed to do. However, I'd still love to see them JBK.

Like the french `trench art' coins, there were hand carved coins with a political message that came straight from the soul. Others, (like the minted ones) were designed and made specifically to stir up the political pot at home.