Played the crack-out game with MPL and lost...

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by carboni7e, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. carboni7e

    carboni7e aka MonsterCoinz

    I have CoinFacts (and suggest everyone do likewise, I cancelled it once only to renew the next month. It really does help a lot.)
    The lowest grade RB is 64, so I would expect it to have more details. Here is a 1913 PR64 BN. I cannot match any diagnostics. It does not have the wide, flat rims or the appearance of a proof. Imagine what a 63 or lower would look like.

    [​IMG]
     
    carboni7e, Dec 30, 2014
    #41 + Quote Reply
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  3. robec

    robec Junior Member

    carboni7e's 1913
    [​IMG]

    1913 - MPL
    [​IMG]
     
    robec, Dec 30, 2014
    #42 + Quote Reply
    micbraun, Chiefbullsit and Tom B like this.
  4. Kirkuleez

    Kirkuleez 80 proof

    Well I was hoping for the best, but that comparison sort of closes the case for me. I hope you can get your money back. I would have made the same mistake that's for sure.
     
    Kirkuleez, Dec 30, 2014
    #43 + Quote Reply
  5. Tamaracian

    Tamaracian 12+ Yr Member--Supporter

    Your coin is well-struck (as are many pre-1920 issues) and has great color, but it is not a matte proof. There are subtle differences in the aforementioned PCGS PF 64 BN COINfacts Image vs your coin, but the most obvious feature is the Reverse Rim between the K4 and K8 positions; your coins' Rim is not square in that region. Also note that in the reference coin the transistion from the fields to the Rim shows little gradient (curvature), whereas your coin has more curvature to it.

    Also, in the Matte Proof the Working Dies were sandblasted, resulting in a very uniform, flat, slightly grainy appearance like 400 grit sandpaper; and the Edge of the coin had a high Mirror finish due to the Planchet preparation.

    I hope this helps.
     
    Tamaracian, Dec 30, 2014
    #44 + Quote Reply
    carboni7e likes this.
  6. Vegas Vic

    Vegas Vic Undermedicated psychiatric patient

    I think we have to agree to agree on this one. Personally I would like to see the listing. If the guy listed it as proof then I totally agree with you. On the other hand if he says "this is a coin not otherwise specified " then I would say he is stuck with the coin.
     
    Vegas Vic, Dec 31, 2014
    #45 + Quote Reply
  7. carboni7e

    carboni7e aka MonsterCoinz

    upload_2014-12-31_8-14-49.png
     

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    carboni7e, Dec 31, 2014
    #46 + Quote Reply
  8. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Don't know that I even want to get into this, probably shouldn't, but what the heck never stopped me before.

    Conder's point is that carboni is stuck because of what he did, he removed the coin from its original holder and sent it to a TPG to be graded. That's it, and yes that is absolutely the accepted practice in numismatics.

    Now did the seller do something wrong ? Of course he did. What he did was reprehensible, just downright wrong. And I agree wholeheartedly that not only should refund the man's money, and I mean all of it, he should be punished for it as well. But will he, or will he be ? Not likely.

    But carnboni did something wrong too. First of all he bought a coin from the guy. And had even asked if he should buy a coin, any coin, from the guy, he woulda been told no, and told by several people. Because that seller that is well known. And as I mentioned in my previous post there is a long list of very unhappy buyers, for various reasons. The second thing he did wrong was to buy a coin, any coin, in that holder. Just about anybody, everybody, knows better than to buy coins in those holders. And if asked he would have been told that too. So why did he do it ? He'll have to answer that himself.

    And carboni I'm not picking on you, I truly feel bad for you and would like to hang the guy. But what I am saying is true. You made a couple of mistakes, actually 3 but the first two are enough. And we all make mistakes, lord knows I've made my share. And when we make mistakes, we are almost always the ones who pay for them. Do I like that ? No. Do I wish it could be stopped ? Absolutely. But at the same time we all have to acknowledge our own responsibility for our own actions when such things happen. For we are the ones who have the last chance to avoid the whole thing. It could never happen at all unless we step forward and say - I'm gonna do this. And by doing that, we have to blame ourselves just as much as we blame the other guy.

    The lesson here for everybody is don't buy coins unless you do your homework, all of your homework. Ask questions BEFORE you buy coins, not after you buy them. There are dozens, scores of people on this forum who would love to help, and will at the drop of a hat. And if you make mistakes we'll all feel bad right along with you, and feel just as bad as you do because we've all done it before ourselves. So we know what it feels like.

    And the worst thing of all, the thing that hurts the most, is that we know in our hearts it's our own faults and we are truly mad at ourselves. Oh we'll still hate the bad guy, want to hang him from a tree. That part will never change.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 31, 2014
    #47 + Quote Reply
    carboni7e and Numismat like this.
  9. carboni7e

    carboni7e aka MonsterCoinz

    I agree with what you're saying. But in the end, worst case scenario, I thought I was still protected by eBay regardless of some faux return policy the seller made up. The item is not as described. eBay should have my back.

    Oh well. Probably an expensive lesson for me. But maybe there's a light at the end of the tunnel too.
     
    carboni7e, Dec 31, 2014
    #48 + Quote Reply
  10. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well I hope it goes your way.
     
    GDJMSP, Dec 31, 2014
    #49 + Quote Reply
  11. d.t.menace

    d.t.menace Member

    If you can prove satisfactorily to ebay that it's the same coin I would bet you can still get refunded. It's been done before, even after the time limit. Your out is the fact he listed it as a proof.
    If not, at least you have a nice "School of Numismatics" tuition coin. Most of us have one or two.
    BTW that's an awfully nice 62.
     
    d.t.menace, Dec 31, 2014
    #50 + Quote Reply
    carboni7e likes this.
  12. imrich

    imrich Supporter! Supporter

    I've been in a similar situation, except with a significantly more expensive 4 figure dollar amount scarce double eagle coin that I believed was appreciably "over-graded" (market grading) by one of the two top tier TPG.

    I received the coin, examined same, believing it to be over-graded as an advanced level "Mint State" by 3-5 grades.

    I believed the auction images had been "doctored", had in-hand images generated, and presented same to the seller and eBay. Both refused a refund because the coin was in one of the 2 "top tier" TPG holders.

    I believed that removal of the coin from its holder would legally invalidate the contract with both eBay and the seller, validating their positions.

    I posted a thread in this venue, not explaining my problem, just asking for grading opinions. All responders agreed that the grade was less than that stated on the holder. The opinioned disparity was as much as 5 grades.

    I presented the evidence to both eBay and the seller with a suggestion of anticipated litigation.

    I returned the coin, and the prominent seller refunded my money.

    The supporting evidence, for substantiation of my claim, should be archived in CoinTalk historical records, available to moderators, as my blockers/ad-ons are in conflict with this sites software.

    I sympathize with you, but understanding the legalities, took a different path, which I believed would allow proper adjudication.

    Centsles has a 99.4% six figure approval rating. I believe that an objective action would result in a favorable adjudication for that firm.

    I have purchased a large 5 figure sum of products from numerous sellers in this venue, always performing as promised, without public complaint, even when receiving less than stated in an ad.

    If you don't receive your refund from eBay or Centsles, PM me, where I will provide my name and address. Upon receiving the coin in its current holder, I'll refund to you the funds you paid to Centsles.

    Rich
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2014
    imrich, Dec 31, 2014
    #51 + Quote Reply
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