Phillip III 8 Reales Cob from Potosi

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Swervo513, Mar 24, 2023.

  1. realeswatcher

    realeswatcher New Member

    Heh... popped up on eBay last night:
    s-l1600 - 2023-11-15T120922.308.jpg
    robinjojo likes this.
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  3. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Wow! Thanks for posting. It is quite remarkable that a coin like this, way below weight standard, would get their approval. These copies are high quality ones, but they have been around for decades, so a firm like this one should have known better.

    On another note, I just picked up this nice Philip III 8 reales cob from the last Sedwick auction. This coin is from the Clyde Hubbard collection (check out the envelope).

    Mexico, 8 reales, Philip III, ND (1599-1607), assayer F. Ex Clyde Hubbard collection.
    KM 44.1
    27.4 grams

    D-Camera Mexico 8 R Phil III ND (1599-1607) assayer F C Hubbard KM 44.1 27.4 g 11-11-23.jpg

    D-Camera Mexico 8r Phil III ND (1599-1607) envelope C Hubbard KM 44.1 27.4 g 11-11-23.jpg

    This coin appears to have been acquired on March 2, 1951, if I'm reading the date correctly. Also rubbings of the obverse and reverse are on the back. Kinda cool!
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  4. realeswatcher

    realeswatcher New Member

    Very nice piece! Yeah, the old-school etchings are fun - that's a remnant of another era. Definitely a cruder style asyr F... and in the legend, looks like "GRATI", no last A?

    RE: the fake, I'll forgive them for not actually recognizing that it's well-known to cob/Spanish Colonial specialists - that's probably beyond their reasonable knowledge base. And while this one does have a nice patina at first glance, the way low weight should have given pause (esp. since it doesn't have a clipped look)... plus there are a few pores/zits visible on this specimen.

    Not the first "known" fake to pass, of course. In the last year, I've seen two of the equally ubiquitous 1730 Mexico fake slabbed and a known 1733 klippe fake w/Guat. C/S (which is up on eBay right now) slabbed. You mentioned the 1732 Potosi... then there is a 1728 Lima, etc.. All are fairly good quality (well, the 1730 pieces are "eh") and that's why they fool people.

    Mexico 1730 8R FAKE slabbed NGC.jpg Mexico 1730 8R FAKE slabbed PCGS.jpg Mexico 1733 klippe 8R freq seen REPRO holed at 6 PCGS.jpg
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2023
  5. realeswatcher

    realeswatcher New Member

    BTW, I assume I'm reading correctly that you in fact bought the model coin from Long in 1982?

    Were you familiar with the fakes at that time... and did you already know their origin or did you learn that later??
  6. robinjojo

    robinjojo Well-Known Member

    Thanks! Yes, the obverse legend ends with GRATI followed by a square. That's the first time I have seen this anomaly, but it could be more common; with the uneven strikes and missing legends on virtually of these coins it is hard to say.

    Yes, Richard Long listed this coin in one of his 1982 auctions (he ran two each year). I have the catalog in a wicker chest, so I'll try to locate it.

    In 1982 I was pretty new in collecting hammer and mill struck coins and my knowledge of the fakes was scant. Back then there weren't many sources to research fakes. Calbeto's two-volume reference comes to mind.

    I was really attracted to this coin's excellent strike, despite the fact that it one of the more "common" Philip III cobs from Mexico, and the bidding was quite stiff, even back then, with an $850 closing price. The brothers in Mexico City who made the copies in the early 1960s did a pretty good job casting them, but they do have tell tale signs of casting, such as the filled flan cracks and lower weight, many times significantly lower, and pretty low silver content.
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