Pet Peeve: that BOGUS 'a sack of Gold for a loaf of bread' adage

I still don't see what any of this has to do with Coin Chat.

 

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In Cambridge Mass food coop in November 2012, the equivalent cost of a chœnix (2.55 lbs. avd.) of wheat = USD$ 3.03 ; the fine Silverweight of the Denarius was 3.0 grams = USD$ 3.13 (avg POS 11/2012 @ USD$ 32.42)

Presumably, retail Wheat is as high in the US mkt as it's ever been if record wholesale prices have been reached (as media reported declare.)

In the time of Pompey's War (63 BCE) Flavius Josephus records that "wheat was then bought for eleven drachmæ" (a very high price) ; was the Tyrian tetradrachm of Silver debased c. 63 BCE?

 

"Penny" was simply used to make the currency relatable to the laymen reading it, just like the "mite" was used instead of a lepton. The original writers wrote lepta, but the King James translators used the name of a dimunitive dutch coin to show how tiny this amount of money was.

Most people could care less about numismatics, and only want the general idea which they can relate to. Today we would probably relate the poor widows cents, or a unit of wheat for a dollar. I am sure most people reading it would appreciate the translation, even if not perfect it helps them understand the general idea of the amount of money.

 

Why are you assuming it has to be Tyrean? The shekels of Tyre had only been minted in Jerusalem for the previous 50 years or so to allow the Jews to use the coins they preferred. However, the Tyrean coin was a shekel, not a drachma, so I do not understand how you are making the assumption it was Tyrean. Btw, yes, by this age many areas that were still using tetradrachms were debased silver. Roman Egypt was quite debased. I have one from a little later, (Nerva), and it looks dark greyish with a thin layer of silver.

Also, "record wholesale prices" is only in nominal terms of the dollar. I am POSITIVE real, (relative), prices have been much higher.

 

Are you trying hard to be contentious? I'm not assuming anything (?) to be "Tyrean" but simply asked if the Tyrian tetradrachm was debased. But - where that coin was circulating - that is likely to be the coin referred to by Josephus. He didn't refer to the shekel, but numerous sources indicate the stater, worth 4 drachms, was approximately equivalent to a shekel. (See Land and Economy in Ancient Palestine, Jack Pastor 1997 p.75)

This is a Silver Dollar/Peso quibble unless one coin was radically debased while the other was not. THEN the comment by Josephus reads another way, but Pastor (1997) doesn't address that. The issue in 65 BCE was probably a food crisis w/price speculation - Pastor cites Jeremias (far too early?) and the estimation a skilled artisan's daily wage was 4 drachmas circa 100 BCE.

Harl (1996) and others point out that EGYPTIAN and North African prices were very different than Asia Minor's. I'm avoiding that zone. I should also correct the US retail Silver price = $3.47, factoring the dealer's 11% premium (apples-to-apples.)

For USD$ Wheat, a US bushel (=60 lbs avd) is $ 9.5125 or the equivalent of $0.4043 per chœnix. So, the US retail Wheat price ($3.03) is 7.506x higher than commodity wholesale/spot.

Back to Antioch in Pisidia AD 92/3 (again) the RETAIL Wheat price was 5x higher than wholesale. That's lower than today, and so too US Fiatsco Dollar debasement continues to whatever tipping point. US retail food prices were probably higher in other times (relative to wholesale) but when exactly in peace-time? Were price-controls in effect?

IF we can only compare current USD$ prices to some emergency period in the USA, then commodity food prices already do indicate how close we are to a crisis in 2012.

In USD$, wholesale mkt Wheat prices were briefly higher in March 2007 (on spec) but USDA stats indicate the US retail Wheat price (April 2007) was only about 4.92x higher. On a relative basis, we're at levels 2x above 2007. Silver was much much cheaper then, too. (I wonder if the Fed is starting to freak on whatever that signals.)

65 BCE: Food Crisis Price
fwiw, the fine Silverweight of the Tyrian drachma was 3.4122 grams = USD$ 3.56 (avg POS 11/2012 @ USD$ 32.42) so a 'modius wheat for eleven drachmæ' (65 BCE) was 37.5342 grams fine Ag, corresponding to (USD$ 39.11/modius=) $111.75 a US bushel, therefore most likely retail $1.86/lb avb. (USD$ 4.75 per chœnix ; 4.69 grams of pure Ag per chœnix)

Unless there was serious debasement (or Flavius Josephus exaggerated/erroneously transcribed the Wheat price) the Food Crisis/Jerusalem price in 65 BCE was 54% higher than the AD 93 Event, as rated in fine Silver. Joachim Jeremias (1962, 1969 p.123) estimated price of the daily Wheat ration had multiplied 16x; the famine under Claudius (AD 44-48?) witnessed a price hike of 13x.

Additional discussion of Roman Period Wheat Prices, famine, etc.: Paul's Early Period: Chronology, Mission Strategy, Theology ... ;Rainer Riesner 91998) p.130

 

Not trying to be contentious. You wish to try to make some comparisons using a stated value, then referenced a completely different coinage. Tyre shekels were only minted at this late date, (Tyre stopped minting them like 100 years before), in Jerusalem as a courtesy to the Jews to use in the Temple. The rest of Aolia Capitolina did not use them, and even their use inside Jerusalem was somewhat limited. Knowing that, I was pointing out you should not use a drachm reference and compare it to the purity of shekels of Tyre. The shekels of Tyre were intentionally higher purity than contemporary coinages of the area.

If you wish to, feel free, but it will immediately invalidate any conclusion you come to. That is what I was trying to be nice about and point out.

Chris

 

medoraman-
I cannot even follow what you're saying. You (not I) wrote "The shekels of Tyre had only been minted in Jerusalem for the previous 50 years or so to allow the Jews to use the coins they preferred" in #44; I did not introduce that comparison here. Your misunderstanding follows your own comment, not mine. Maybe Josphus Flavius meant 'shekels' ...if that's what you're getting at (without explaining YOUR switch)... but he did, in fact, write "drachm" and "modius" in the same sentence (according to all the translations.) Translating for the Emperor Vespasian and estimating weights/prices from 100 years earlier, the 'modius' and 'drachm' conversions Josephus have been called into question by modern scholars. Many scholars have disagreed with his purported Wheat price, on closer examination.

If we're getting speculative, among the Jews of Jerusalem the commonest measure for grains was the ephah, then the smaller seah (modius equivalent?) For the latter, Judaic scholars have noted that local variants and perhaps even a double-measure may have existed. Josephus rated the ephah at 72 sextarii (1.12 bushels ~67 lbs avd). If 1 liter of wheat weighs 0.714 kgs, the range is an ephah of 39 or 44 liters (27.8 kgs/61.4 lbs avd. or 31.4 kgs/69.3 lbs avd.) which approximates the US Bushel weight (~8-10 gallons dry measure = 1 US Bushel) of 60 lbs avd wheat. The seah calc's 1/3rd the ephah, ~ 21-23 lbs avd., almost identical to the lighter "Italian modius" (there are heavier modius variants, too) is too light - what I suppose to be Josephus' error in substitution, confusing the ephah with the seah.

If the ephah sold for 11, the seah sold for 3.63 "drachma." Coin-weight isn't the major discrepancy here, it's the modius/seah. In the brief 65 BCE Food Crisis event (cited only by Josephus) the price of Wheat was not astronomically 16x higher, but more like ~3x.
On the "11 drachmæ," Josephus elsewhere notes the value of 4 Attic drachmæ or 4 denarii per shekel (not the Sanctuary Shekel but instead the ordinary shekel.)
Taking the ordinary shekel @ 11.4 grams pure Ag, "11 drachmæ" = 31.35 grams Ag.
Taking the mint-weight of the Tetradrachm @ 13.65 grams pure Ag, "11 drachmæ" = 37.54 grams Ag.
Taking the denarius @ 3.04 = 33.44 grams Ag.

During the reign of Claudius, a very severe famine was noted in Greece, circa AD 48-50 (Greswell, Dissertations, 1830 p.20) "according to Eusebius, in Chronico, it was the case in Greece also. He speaks of a famine in Greece, in the ninth {year} of Claudius, A. U. 802; when the modius or peck of corn, rose to six drachma; or denarii in price, that is, to six times its usual value. The ordinary price of the modius of bread-corn was one drachma, or denarius, and not more."

Shortly thereafter (AD 52, 54) according to George Syncellus, as the famine progressed at Corinth the price of grain around was 48 sesterii (12 denarii) to twelve times its usual value.

That's about the maximum range I've seen so far, in Silver.

 

In the time of Pompey's War (63 BCE) Flavius Josephus records that "wheat was then bought for eleven drachmæ" (a very high price) ; was the Tyrian tetradrachm of Silver debased c. 63 BCE?

Read more: http://www.cointalk.com/t217245-3/#ixzz2DMhabriU

I was assuming you were equating the drachm reference in Josephus to the Tyre shekel used in Jerusalem. So, I was letting you know the Tyre shekel was not representative of the average silver weight of the period, and it was not a drachm. They were completely different weight standards and names, but the most important point would be a silver drachm that Josephus was referring to most likely was not nearly the same purity of a Tyre shekel.

Its like saying, "I have an UK pound, so I am comparing it to the silver in a US dollar". Problem is, they are different units of currency, and at different times had similar purity, but at other times had vastly different levels of purity, yet the exchange rate could still be the same. See the problem.

Anyway, that is what I was trying help point out.

 

YES, you're absolutely correct: "pound" might not mean 16 ounces avoirdupois and "Dollar" might not mean 371 4/16th grains pure Ag, etc.
And I don't presume this is all correct, I'm just testing these different "price levels."

A few other famine events might be considered, looking for the most extreme 'Silver/Wheat yardsticks.'

From A History of agricultural Prices in England from 1259-1400 ; Arthur George Liddon Rogers, p.197
In the decade or so before, the typical Wheat price range was 4.5 shillings - 7 s., with an average ~ 6s. (£ 0.32, very nearly the average for the last 50 years of the 14th C.)
"1315: The evidence for this year is abundant and precise, extending from Northumberland to the south of the Thames, and from Glamorganshire to Cambridge. In most of the accounts, too, the sales are dated, so that it is possible to trace the course of the markets. It is the first year of the great famine. The price of wheat, either in consequence of actual scarcity in the year before, or by anticipation of a total failure of the crop in the present year, was generally but not universally high. And it appears that for some time after such a crop as was gathered had been housed the extent of the calamity was not known. At any rate, it seems that the price though high was not excessive till some time after Christmas. Seed was bought at full and increasing rates, but still at prices to which parallel could be found in past years. Thus in South Wales, Oxfordshire, and the neighbourhood of London, the rate during the winter months was as low as 7s. 4d., and did not exceed 10s. In Cambridge, on the other hand, seed-wheat was dearer than has been known before during the autumn, unless we are to conclude that the corn in this place was spring-sown. About the beginning of February the real state of affairs becomes manifest, and the true famine commences. It is to be observed that the phenomenon is universal, although the highest actual price recorded is at Letherhead, where a sale was effected at 26s. 8d." (£1.34)

Retail receipts record the wheat price was £2., but it should be obvious that for an event cited as one of the worst in European history, the highest Wheat price for 14th C. England (famine) was "only" 4.2x greater than the average price, in Silver. At bullion weight and converting the Tower Pound (243 pence) £ 0.09 per Troy Ounce Ag, £ 1.34 is about 14.86 modern English Troy Ounces per 'Quarter' of Wheat (480 lbs. avd.) Equivalent USD$ rate (POS $32.42) = USD$ 1.00 per lb.avd. wheat, wholesale. ~ $1.50 per lb.avd for wheat retail (1315 rate) or the same multiple as my local US wholesale>retail markup,~ USD$ 10./lb. for Wheat, retail?

Certainly hope we don't see $10./lb for raw wheat anytime, but that's one historical famine price: I doubt the USA has ever witnessed that ever or relatively (inflation-adjusted.)

Siena, Italy January 1329: 1 staio wheat (~ 1 US Bushel) = 1 florin (@67 soldi) ...14 grossi @ 1.7 grams @ .965 Fine? >> ~ 23.8 grams Ag = 3.5 grams of Au (Questionable; daily coin-rates) ...Equivalent USD$ rate (POG $1747) = USD$ 2.56 per lb./avd. wholesale; ~ $5. retail? (Still, Questionable.)

The 1801 English Wheat Price would be another extreme datapoint, fwiw. (The average 1780s price is 6.14x higher than 1315, due to inflation.) March 1801 was the absolute highest recorded English Wheat Price in the pre-modern period.Tait's Edinburgh Magazine, Vol. 6 (p.154) excerpts Tooke's History of Prices:

"Now the price {per bushel, in England or Wales} for twelve years, ending 1794, was for wheat 6s. 10d., and for barley 3s. 3d. {...} In December of the same year (after a slight depression from favourable appearances in the harvest) the average of wheat again rose to 133s.; barley, 76s. 7d.; oats, 41s. 8d. The sufferings of the people were very great; but prices still advanced, until, in March 1801, wheat had reached 156s. 2d.; barley 90s., and oats 47s. 2d. Meat and dairy produce rose in proportion..."

From ~1794-1801, the English bushel price rose from £0.34 to £ 7.80, 22.82x Despite this, Tooke said there were few recorded deaths by destitution!
Silver dollars coined at the English Mint sold @ £0.3081 per ounce Troy Fine Ag, so (at bullion rates) 1 bushel of English Wheat went from $ 1.11 > $25.32 in 'Pillar Dollars.'
The retail price was whatever multiple of $0.3164 (in 1801 UK$ coin) consistent with my local calculation above, ~$ 3.16 lb.avd; or, at 2012 Silver Rate (POS $32.42) USD$ 10.26

In coin, 190 lbs avd barrel of fine flour sold for $24. in Havana (doubled in price) and as much as $90. (doubled?) in remote Colombia. So other distant places witnessed sudden and brief inflation during this English Wartime/Famine Wheat Price Event of 1801.

The "Historic Famine Price" for raw wheat, retail cost in Ag, is ~$10./lb. avd.

 

c.AD 300-3 Antioch Famine: Under Constantine, Antioch (Syria) suffered "so terrible a famine, that a modius of wheat was sold for 400 pieces of silver."
Suppose 400 pieces of Silver is the the Silvered penny (nummus). At 2.48 grams and 1.0% Ag = 0.0248 gr x 400 ~ 10 gr pure Ag (intrinsic) 3.3 Denarii (of Domitian, ~3.04 gr)

Presumably not the bigger modius castrensis (1.5 modii) and a wholesale price, the Antioch Famine of c.AD 333 is 3x worse than AD 93 Price Event in Pisidia, as measured in Silver.
Incidentally, the Famine Rate is equivalent to a very low USD Silver/Wheat price of USD$ 0.50, perhaps indicative of debasement rather than an unknown (AD 333, local) Silver Price.

In AD 305 wages, the typical Wheat price per modius castrensis was 4 nummi (1.72 gr Pure Ag) or about 1/2 of 1 'Denarius of Domitian.' So in the Antioch Famine of c.AD 333, the Wheat Price (in 'Silver Money') was almost 6x higher than average. I'm wary of this theoretical Silver rate, however, because the nummus value against Gold/Silver was volatile and unknown here.


Background to the 'Universal' Famines of 1877 & 1899
http://www.theglobalist.com/storyid.aspx?StoryId=5516


Incredible Famine, Shanxi China 1876-79:
The monetary situation in Shanxi (the worst area for the famine) is far too complicated for me to understand: there appears a complete breakdown in societal order, heart-breaking poverty in addition to the El Nino drought. Grain was available, it seems MONEY was not, and the distilleries never closed.

Absolutely NOTHING suggests the relative value of Silver money or Silver (bullion) fell during this Food Crisis. Silver is obviously useless metric for suffering - the starving apparently had none, they were killing each other & robbing, selling children, etc. for any money they could get. Quite opposed to the Paper-Bug's adage, in famine-stricken China 1877, data suggests Ag was a superior provision for 3-4x 'inflated prices' and better than cash.

In his Monograph on the history of money in China, from the earliest times... Alexander Del Mar (1880) describes a fluctuating underground money market, monetary crisis of a commodity nature (copper) and endemic corruption, etc. but he doesn't mention the famine nor the poverty.

In Shanxi province (where 9.5 mln of 15 mln perished) The North China Daily News (Shanghai, February 18, 1878) reported "in Lu-ngan Fu he found that the winter wheat had not been planted, and that the country, its own provisions of grain exhausted, was depending upon the importations {...} Flour was selling at 60 or 70 cash per catty, which is three or four times the ordinary price." (45-53 quian per lb.avd = T$ 0.045 - 0.053)

A missionary wrote in February 1877 "The soft stone is sold at prices varying from two to five cash per catty, according to distance of carriage. Bark is sold at from five to seven cents per catty at the places where I inquired. The roots of rushes are dug and eaten. This causes the face to swell, and the stone, when taken in large quantities, has the same effect as chalk; people die of constipation. The price of grain is three or four times the usual rate, and the price of turnips and cabbages fire and six times. Flour costs seven, eight, or nine cash an ounce, according to the place at which it is bought." (84-108 quian per lb.avd = T$ 0.08 - 0.11)

A Chinese official wondered why distilleries in neighboring Chihili were still brewing grain: "Reckoning two {catty} of grain as sufficient to feed one person one day, and it seems that the distilleries in question are daily consuming the food of between two and three millions of human beings. The establishments named are continually buying up and using both the grain grown within the province and that from abroad, with the result that there is a scarcity of food for the people, for although there is no lack of grain brought here from far and near by merchants for sale, the price is not, as usual, moderate. {...} As now the provinces of Chihli and Shansi, being famine stricken, are looking to the grain of Manchuria for food supplies, it is certainly trying to one's patience to learn that the distilleries are controlling that market. A person may abstain from liquor for an entire year, but if he does not eat twice each day, he suffers from hunger. There is an original difference between these two articles of food and liqnor."

The High Price for Rice (mi) was 1,000 qianper dou (retail?) in 1877.
1,000 qian = 1 tael @ 37.8 grams Ag per = 1.2153 Troy Oz Pure Ag = Trade $ 1.7147
1 dou = 10 liters or 2.27 dry gallons = 5 kilograms/ 11 pounds avoirdupois of rice = Trade $ 0.1559 per lb avd, for rice sold retail.
10 dou = 1 shi = 140 lbs avd. ; 1 'ton' (?) = 12 shih = 1,680 lbs avd. @ "48 taels" per 'ton' in 1877 (Report on the Famine WF Mayers, 10/30/1877) = T$ 60.95 :
Assuming Trade $ 0.0363 per lb avd, for rice sold wholesale is consistent with the other US Consular reports cited above.