Featured Peace Dollars (Is strike an element of grade?)

What do you think of this?

 

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cool irony, eddie.

I think that either what Darryl said about listing in the redbook by date, how the coin should be struck, or a standard that is used for all coins of a particular series regardless of date or mint. personally, I think that the more standardized "standard", the same criteria for entire series, makes the most sense. Don't tell me it's because they just weren't struck that well in certain years, because that just makes me say that there shouldn't be any of certain high grades from that year and mint.

I want someone to explain to me why we can't grade coins across a series the same way? Why do I have to grade a 1921-D Walker differently from a 1938-D Walker? It would be more consistent if we did, and I know we don't. I just want to know why we don't?

 

I don't think that there is much of a market for MS-66 BN Lincolns

 

You could not use one coin just like you can not use one sample from any group to form any statistic. Take a large MS/PR group from each mint and each date and start recording data about the coins qualities. You are not looking for the best or worst, just the average to measure others against. The top TPG's working together could work with the ANA to compile the data and publish the results. Do it just like I stated in my first post - and list the different aspects that influence a grade. The TPG's probably already have a database of this type of data to help the graders assign grades properly - at least I would hope! If they don't they have to rely on the expertise of the graders who could walk out the door any time they wish with that expertise in their heads.

It could be done - I'm sure of it - but it would take people working together to make it happen. Standards are developed all the time in the private sector using a similar approach.

 

This is where I think you take something simple, call it complicated and tell us that it is just not possible by saying "it's just that simple" and I don't think that I could disagree more.

What I think would be more fair would be to take each series and break it into master hub changes. This is to make it fair. Something that compares apples to apples. You take the design (not a particluar coin in the series) and determine what a full strike is (this is MS-70), where the high points are (Mint State grades), and in what ways the design degrades as it wears.

From this you can determine a coin's depth and quality of strike based on something concrete, not base it on known examples of this date and mint. You judge Mint state coins by depth of strike and placement of bagmarks, not overall appeal. The eye appeal and toning are attributes that dictate a coin's value more than it's grade and therefore should be left to those that deal in exchanging coins for money, not those grading them. This would remove "market grading" from the picture. These elements are totally subjective and a key reason why many object to them being an integral part of a coin's grade.

This take on grading is simple. It employs one standard per master hub across many dates and mintmarks, and I believe is more fair, less subjective, and easier to not only explain, but to grasp.

We can discuss it's merits based on particular coins in particular series used as examples and I welcome the discussion, but if you ask me, it's not just that simple... it can be, though.

 

FWIW - I agree with you, especially since different dates and mints are mostly in the same collectors market. Not everybody collects full sets.
I would never buy a worn out 1916 D Merc for a thousand dollars.

Ruben

 

Your getting very close to discussing Validation of Process now....

Watch out. Next you'll want scientific methodology to be used by TPGers.

Ruben

 

If I was a Lincoln collector I'd take this coin in a heart beat over most MS66's
It looks like a proof strike.

Ruben

 

BTW - I was just reading what I think is Bowers words in the ANA guild on strike and grades which I believe was covered here somewhere. There is a problem. He's right that TPGers are pushing unhorned Bison into the MS 66 range of the slabbing business, but he's making the wrong conclusion that this is the modern market. In fact, he can't substantiate that! As a fact the same guild has a colored grading section on cherry picking and example after example of better strikes that would go for more money by its own admission, even at a lesser grade.

Call me a hard headed illogical fool who never learns anything on cointalk, and with no experience in the coin grading business if you want but this is obviously inconsistent, perhaps stupid.

Ruben

 

Oh - your getting old... The doesn't sound like the old GD I know...

Ruben

 

It's all about the process...

Ruben

 

BTW - I'm not sure this coin is even AU. It might be XF

 

You make that sound too perfectly repeatable. I think there always has to be a human element that can judge up or down a grade based on an individual assessment of all of the aspects that contribute to the grade including eye appeal. The key is to give everyone the rules to play by to help level collectors and dealers and graders a little.

 

Thanks for at least trying for without that we wouldn't be able to comprehend why we are where we are...

 

The human factor can be statistically normalized...always has.

Ruben

 

I think you should go on. Just because you may not change Mike's mind or even mine for that matter, doesn't mean that a lurker might not benefit from the knowledge that you post. This thread has gotten very good with just the kind of discussion that I was hoping to provoke. And you know very well that strike is not my area of expertise because of my collecting habits.

I am eager to find out why you can't grade a coins strike versus the original design as opposed to choosing a minted example that reflects a certain grade. Even if you had to choose a certain mint & year as an example of a particular grade, why you can't judge other coins from other mints and years versus each other. I really don't understand the idea of a bell curve for grading. I have an idea of what an MS66 Peace Dollar looks like. If a particular mint during a particular year was unable to produce a coin that looks like an MS66, then they should have to settle for an MS65 as the highest grade produced. They should not get a grading curve because they were mandated to mint a number of coins that precluded them from concentrating on quality.

My real concern is how a collector is supposed to assemble a well matched set of coins if the grading standards change from mint to mint and year to year. If you can explain that to me Doug, I would be grateful.

Thanks

Paul