PCI becoming DGS

I agree...very much looking forward to when the coins hit the market.

 

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If you walk into a brick and mortar establishment, or even an online store, and peruse the inventory and find something you like and buy it...is the dealer implying authenticity of the coin by selling it? It is criminally illegal to sell counterfeit coins. Certification in and of itself means absolutely nothing, even from a TPG. The only thing a coin in a TPG may offer is some form of indemnity if the coin has been found to be counterfeit. Even that has not been proven in case law, as far as I know.

Now, if you purchase a coin from a dealer, you are assuming authenticity. If you purchase a coin raw from eBay, you are assuming authenticity. If you purchase a coin in any form of slab, you are assuming authenticity. Why? Because it is illegal to sell any coin otherwise.

Now, of course, the unscrupulous in the industry could give a hoot about the law or any semblance of ethics. But, authenticity is an implied fact in any coin deal, unless otherwise stated explicitly.

Now, as regards to pretense of certification. Certification is simply a written contract where an individual or entity makes claim that tangible property (such as coins), or intangible property (such as knowledge, ie IT Certifications) meet a specific standard of authenticity or level of performance or condition.

Why would the U.S. Mint send a Certificate of Authenticity with their products? The proof set is in the U.S. Mint branded plastic, were minted at the mints designated on the coins, and a C.O.A. can be more than easily duplicated and faked anyway. So why include it? Because it is the legal contract of certification, stating that the product is indeed what it claims to be.

A PCGS graded coin in its slab does not come with any certification papers. You buy the PCGS slab off of eBay, and you are purchasing the coin with an IMPLIED pretense of certification. The certification is never explicit without a written contract. The written contract for PCGS graded coins is presented on their website. But, this could change at any moment. And when it does, it overrides any previous version of the contract. So, at any given point in time, PCGS could very well decide that there will no longer be any "certification" on any previously graded slab by simply removing all references to any certification from their website.

SGS/Aboncom, on the other hand, sends an actual written contract (C.O.A.) with their slabs identifying the coins covered by the C.O.A. This contract cannot be arbitrarily changed like the NGC/PCGS contracts. In no way am I condoning what SGS/Aboncom is doing (as many of you well know my position on that company particulary), but, their conduct of supplying a tangible contract stating Certification speaks more volumes in my book than an arbitrary internet based contract like NGC/PCGS.

Then again, whether online or on a piece of paper, that certification is only worth as much as their reputation in the community. The same goes for brick and mortar dealers. There are good dealers, and there are bad dealers. Yet, should we pile up every dealer into one basket and throw them all out because a majority, no matter how vast it is, is crooked, over-priced, and deceptive?

If not, then why do it to other parts of the industry? Like I said before, "self-slab" is not necessarily "bottom-feeder", and there are "bottom-feeders" even amongst other niches in the industry including brick and mortar dealers.

AGREED! However, that is not to say that the explicit conflicts of interest we see in the TPGs are any better. Deception is deception. Transparency is preferred. The way I view it, I do not care if it's a brick and mortar dealer, a "self-slabber", or a TPG, if they are not transparent in their involvement in the actual market (buying and selling of coins), then they are all in the same class together. If they are transparent, as long as it is known and explicitly stated, then they are good to go in my book.

What about over-grading? Again, another issue. Grading is subjective...period! We will never have a completely objectively technical grading standard that is workable. There are too many subjective factors involved in determining the overall condition of a coin. I believe GD already has a thread dedicated to this subject which I have opted myself out of for good reason. If you think these posts are long, you do not want to see my dissertations on grading. Besides, that would just move GD to write a rebuttal dissertation. :hug:

Exactly the point! On the secondary market, whether "slabbed" or "carded", anybody can put anything on the container to make the sell. That is why educating ourselves and others is so very important. There are going to be those that take the instruction lightly or even indignantly and continue paying over "acceptable" prices for below "acceptable" coins, some will complain, some will be completely happy. And some will grow in their knowledge and begin to scrutinize everything from anyone and join the community of skeptics and cynics who call themselves "coin collectors"! (not to say that all coin collectors are skeptics and cynics, but...)

 

As have I, as well as misattributions. One could say they are due to human error, they look at a lot of coins, maybe they mistakenly encase a Roman coin in a slab meant for a Greek coin (the worse example I have seen). This is, of course, a mistake and is understandable when one is processing so many coins. I think it serves as a red flag when it comes to the fallibility of TPG companies who are, after all, only human and susceptible to all human flaws and bias. If a coin can be misattributed by mistake, a glaring error, how many more errors do they make that are not quite as glaring...I would bet quite a few in the realm of authentication and grading (and dont get me started on the cleaning thing). I have a finite amount of coins and can spend all the time I need studying my own coins. I am not trying to grade and slab X amount of coins each day to make a good turn around and I wont make a mistake. I am a do it yourself guy, its my hobby and as such I want to learn everything about all aspects of it that I can, I dont need to pay others to do something I can do myself. I can save the money and buy more coins!!!

Now if I were selling coins and wanted to eek a few more bucks out of a coin, I might think of getting them slabbed so I can tack on an extra 20-30 bucks (or how ever much they do) to the price....naaaaaaaaah...never.

Back on topic now I guess.

 

From their site
DGS grading will be based on strict standards (i.e. Photograde, for circulated coins). On mint state coinage, DGS will grade conservatively with a focus on eye appeal, freshness of surfaces (including originality) and marketability.

 

Why are they taking photos? See below This sounds like a good idea to me and it apparently will be helpful to myself and others in detecting substituted counterfeit coins placed in the holders. As a purchaser of coins occasionally online I can go to their site and see a professional photo of the coin, to grade myself, before my purchase.

From their site:
AuthentiVIEW ™: DGS is introducing a new service called AuthentiVIEW ™ which is integral to the submission process. All coins submitted above the "Budget" tier (i.e. valued above $100) will be imaged -- this image will serve as an authentication tool for any DGS certified coin. Anyone will be able to go online, enter a serial # and see an image of the coin in the holder after it was graded.

Visual Population Report: DGS will be the first grading service to have an entirely visual population report on our web site. Users who wish to look up populations will be able to see the AuthentiVIEW images of all the coins graded. Feigenbaum states, "We anticipate this to be a useful tool for all numismatists. Just imagine the ability to see every 1901-S quarter we've certified; or a more common coin like the 1933-S Walker. This visual archive will be available to everyone." The Visual Population Report will be available as soon as 1000 coins have been graded.


Another item that they will be doing is not body bagging problem coins. If you pay for a service they will provide a service.

From their site:
Net Grading of Problem Coins: Coins that have been cleaned, repaired, or damaged in any way will be slabbed in the same holder and label as undamaged coins, but the holder will describe the problem without "net grading the coin". Coins will not be double-punished. The actual best determination of grade will be stated along with the notation of the problem. For example a coin may be described as: DGS AU55: Lightly Cleaned, Reverse scratches. According to Feigenbaum, "most coins are not perfect or original and it's a shame not to have them in holders."

 

This is an excellent decision for the business and the hobby. Body-bagging and net-grading never made any sense in my opinion. Just slab and describe what it there as accurately as possible.:hail:

 

...(conserving some space)

Unfortunately, what you have done is linked a hyped advertisement, not the legal contract which is found here. #16 in their terms makes it clear that they are copyrighting YOUR coin's image. The very image of a coin can in and of itself be of value, especially if it is a rarity with regards to type, variety, error, etc. By submitting any such coins to DGS, they are claiming full copyright to that image of the coin. By submitting your coin to DGS you are agreeing to their legal contract, and thus granting them to charge you to photograph your coin and use it in any manner they choose...even to license it to others for commercial use.

In this contract you are acknowledging, in the very least, that you are granting them a royalty-free license to utilize the image of your coin in whatever capacity they desire. Because this clause is so broad, it could have consequences as far reaching as granting them the exclusive right to use the coin and holder together for commercial purposes. Just something to really think about.

That is only partly true. They make an advertising claim that they will grade problem coins, but they do not guarantee that they will...there is simply the probability that they will. Again, you must read the legal contract. Consider #4 very carefully (refer to the linked Terms and Conditions directed to the DGS website).

Here is a scenario for you. You buy a coin from eBay seller imaspoon. You receive your new coin and send it straight to DGS for grading since they will grade "problem" coins. You have no worries, because you are under the understanding that they will not bodybag a coin, but simply slab it with comment. Unfortunately, there is nowhere neither in their ToS nor in their advertising that states explicitly that they slab every coin. In fact, they notify you of the fact that they will not slab "doctored" coins, and your recent submission had been dipped prior to submission and therefore a violation of the ToS.

You receive your coin shortly afterward, with a tart letter, and are out your submission fees, and still have a raw coin. remember, there are varied levels of "cleaning". Even the "Big 3" will occasionally have very lightly cleaned coins. Lightly cleaned coins are normally not considered to be "altered", per se, so much as not being able to be graded due to "market acceptability". Dipping, on the other hand, is normally considered purely an alteration of surfaces, in other words, "doctored".

Reading their press release, then reading their ToS, they are propagating only half of the truth behind their services in their advertising. To me, this is deception by omission. Yet, only time will tell if I am right and numerous coins will start coming back in "bodybags" or if I'm wrong and everybody will be free to "dip and submit" and have the coin slabbed.

 

NPCoin
Whatever you say, :desk: wish you luck.

 

It is my understanding that dipped coins do get slabbed by the big 3.

 

If done correctly.

Phoenix

 

That sounds like Market Grading to me.

 

Of Course, thats what they ALL do !!

 

Well, yeah. But do the others advertise that fact?

 

You misunderstand "market-making" in a numismatic sense. They will buy the coins and sell them at a predetermined spread and the price will be dictated by the market. They will certainly advertize the coins in their inventory, bu do you really begrudge a dealer that? This simply means that the coins will always have a buyer, and if you own any of those coins that can be nothing but a good thing.

Yes, they do.



Finally, NP Coin I'm not certain where all the venom is coming from, but about half way through your second rant I gave up trying to figure the real issue out. You gotta chill!

You clearly are jaded against grading services or DLRC or something, but I can assure you that DGS will be a step up from PCI based on the quality of their numismatists. I can personally vouch for the reputation that Feigenbaum and John Brush have in the marketplace. I'm not certain this venture will succeed but if it doesn't it won't be for lack of numismatic skill.

 

My opinion... a worthless service becomes no more or less worthless because it suddenly has new initials. That goes for all the other TPGs too. If I wanted to give away my money and receive nothing of value in return, I'll go to a casino and play the slots... at least there's the fun blinking lights.