PCGS will start grading paper currency again

Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by Mountain Man, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Well-Known Member

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  3. SteveInTampa

    SteveInTampa Always Learning

    Earlier than most expected. Word on the street was the launch was scheduled for Q1 2020. Good news for collectors.
    Endeavor likes this.
  4. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    I am a little confused on who would have the
    Rights to the old PCGS Registry ? As it seems
    Legacy already has a similar template in
  5. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    K3B, the PCGS licensee, that is now (maybe) operating as Legacy owns the rights to the data in the registry from the time it took over from CU.
  6. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    So PCGS doesn't have the rights to its OWN data ? I would guess they'd want that data so they know grades in various populations, right ? But maybe they can just access it from other websites. Or maybe for internal non-commercial use they have rights in perpetuity or something. I don't know.

    Interesting that NGC named their paper grading entity "PMG" and it's #1 in that field but that PCGS (#1 in coins) found their own name a distant #2.

    Not sure why they ever left it. Leaving a business that is a duopoly is very strange. Had to be profitable for them.
  7. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    PCGS is a trade name. PCGS is not a corporation and owns nothing. Collectors Universe Inc. licensed the PCGS name to K3B Inc. for currency grading.

    K3B owns the data and is responsible for the guarantee for notes it certified while it had the PCGS license. So that data is in the hands of Jason Bradford and K3B that is now trying to operate as Legacy.

    The data never belonged to Collectors Universe.
    geekpryde likes this.
  8. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, but Collectors Univers is for all intents and purposes PCGS. It's the main entity within the holding company, which is publicly traded.

    Interesting...what data are we talking about specifically ? Population numbers ?

    I thought PCGS and NGC and the general public could always see how many MS65's there were for 1911-S Saints graded by each company, right ?
  9. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    But CU is not K3B. K3B graded the notes and K3B has the data. For better or worse, it belongs to them. Just as the data from before K3B took over belongs to CU. This includes the data for the registry.
    SteveInTampa and GoldFinger1969 like this.
  10. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    then it seams to me that CU would still
    Own the rights since they our basically renting out the name (PCGS) or at the very least I would consider this a very gray area especially if the name is reinstated under
    Another agreement.
  11. lettow

    lettow Senior Member

    It is not a gray area. The data obtained by K3B when it graded notes belongs to K3B whether it graded the notes as PCGS or Legacy or any other trade name. Absent some other agreement, CU has no rights to this data. Just because K3B no longer could use the name PCGS does not mean that K3B lost or had to transfer its rights in its own proprietary information.

    PCGS Currency was only a name.
  12. Robidoux Pass

    Robidoux Pass Active Member

    One needs to recognize that the PCGS coin grading and the PCGS currency grading were completely separate divisions of Collectors Universe. The two (coin and currency) should not be mixed up; what applies to one does not apply to the other. Collectors Universe also had other grading and authentication subsidiaries such as for sports cards. They used to have one for grading and authenticating stamps but I don't think they have that one anymore.

    Because financial performance was not as expected, Collectors Universe in 2009 sold the contents and operation of the currency division for a significant sum to Jason Bradford and Laura Kessler, operating under the legal name of K3B. Simultaneously, Collectors Universe licensed the name "PCGS Currency" to K3B for 10 years and the agreement did have a clause for renewal for one more 10-year term. Thus K3B operated under the name "PCGS Currency" although they were completely independent of Collectors Universe. The first 10-year license agreement expired this year and the 2nd 10-year license was not implemented as Collectors Universe and K3B have had some legal wrangling in the last few years. Keep in mind that Collectors Universe opened a paper money grading business in China under the name (if I recall correctly) PCGS Bank Note Grading. They could not use the name PCGS Currency as they had given the specific license for that name to K3B.

    The result is that in 2019 Collectors Universe has now reclaimed the licensed name of PCGS Currency. However, I don't see how that entitles them to the work product of K3B over the last 10 years. Keep in mind that Collectors Universe sold the currency division to K3B. They would have to make other arrangements to obtain K3B's work product during the ten years that Collectors Universe did not own the work product of K3B operating under the licensed name of PCGS Currency.

    It'll be interesting how this ultimately turns out.
  13. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    since I have hundreds of PCGS graded notes
    Figuring out where they finally would end
    Up, at Legacy ? which to me makes no sense
    Even though the product is the same and
    The person that did the original grading is
    As well, the name has changed so to me
    Having a PCGS graded note in a Legacy
    Registry would be idiotic and I would never
    Consider sending everything in to get regraded, just not cost effective, something
    For sure needs to be done though, hopefully
    Something can be worked out so that
    Notes that were originally PCGS stay
    PCGS !
  14. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    be it Collectors Universe or K3B , the name
    On the holder is PCGS and that’s what’s
    Important to me.
  15. Endeavor

    Endeavor Well-Known Member

    Unless the licensing agreement states PCGS acquires the data upon end of lease I don't see why they would have the rights to it. The work was performed by K3B. I believe the deal was just for name rights.

    Because PCGS probably doesn't have the registry/population information probably explains why they won't be operating as "PCGS Currency" when they begin grading in 2020. They will be PCGS Banknotes.

    Not defending PCGS Currency but the market doesn't consider them a distant 2nd. Sales prices between the two are generally similar.

    With that said, I personally prefer PMG because of their crimped and laminated sleeves which has the label contained within. Interestingly, PCGS Gold Shield sleeves are like PMG so it begs to wonder if PCGS Banknotes will use the same.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  16. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    Since we don’t have a copy of the agreement
    Between Collectors Universe and K3B it’s
    Impossible to tell how this will work out
    But unless CU can get the rights to the
    Registry I don’t see a positive result
    But honestly from a financial stand point
    It does no good to Legacy so selling those
    Rights back would be there best move.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  17. SteveInTampa

    SteveInTampa Always Learning

    What will happen to the PCGS registry and population report is yet to be determined, but my desire would be for the population report to be available to all collectors without the added expense of an annual membership fee...like they have over at PMG. I view the registry sets as a vanity expense leading to bragging rights for collectors chasing high grading numbers.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  18. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    If the Pop reports aren't publicly available, it really hurts the hobby. If PCGS tells us how many MS67 Saints there are in a year, but NGC won't, or vice-versa, it's ridiculous.

    And it hurts their business and bottom lines, too, IMO.
  19. mpcusa

    mpcusa "Official C.T. TROLL SWEEPER"

    PCGS and PCGS Currency are two different
    Entities, we are only talking about the currency part here, The key solution is to
    Get the registry data back, however that
    Is accomplished.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  20. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    Gotcha....I have to remember to keep my currency and coin grading separate.

    Tough to manage two different identities....just ask Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.:D
    SteveInTampa likes this.
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