Discussion in 'Paper Money' started by Mountain Man, Nov 12, 2019.
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Rights to the old PCGS Registry ? As it seems
Legacy already has a similar template in
K3B, the PCGS licensee, that is now (maybe) operating as Legacy owns the rights to the data in the registry from the time it took over from CU.
So PCGS doesn't have the rights to its OWN data ? I would guess they'd want that data so they know grades in various populations, right ? But maybe they can just access it from other websites. Or maybe for internal non-commercial use they have rights in perpetuity or something. I don't know.
Interesting that NGC named their paper grading entity "PMG" and it's #1 in that field but that PCGS (#1 in coins) found their own name a distant #2.
Not sure why they ever left it. Leaving a business that is a duopoly is very strange. Had to be profitable for them.
K3B owns the data and is responsible for the guarantee for notes it certified while it had the PCGS license. So that data is in the hands of Jason Bradford and K3B that is now trying to operate as Legacy.
The data never belonged to Collectors Universe.
Yeah, but Collectors Univers is for all intents and purposes PCGS. It's the main entity within the holding company, which is publicly traded.
Interesting...what data are we talking about specifically ? Population numbers ?
I thought PCGS and NGC and the general public could always see how many MS65's there were for 1911-S Saints graded by each company, right ?
But CU is not K3B. K3B graded the notes and K3B has the data. For better or worse, it belongs to them. Just as the data from before K3B took over belongs to CU. This includes the data for the registry.
then it seams to me that CU would still
Own the rights since they our basically renting out the name (PCGS) or at the very least I would consider this a very gray area especially if the name is reinstated under
It is not a gray area. The data obtained by K3B when it graded notes belongs to K3B whether it graded the notes as PCGS or Legacy or any other trade name. Absent some other agreement, CU has no rights to this data. Just because K3B no longer could use the name PCGS does not mean that K3B lost or had to transfer its rights in its own proprietary information.
PCGS Currency was only a name.
Because financial performance was not as expected, Collectors Universe in 2009 sold the contents and operation of the currency division for a significant sum to Jason Bradford and Laura Kessler, operating under the legal name of K3B. Simultaneously, Collectors Universe licensed the name "PCGS Currency" to K3B for 10 years and the agreement did have a clause for renewal for one more 10-year term. Thus K3B operated under the name "PCGS Currency" although they were completely independent of Collectors Universe. The first 10-year license agreement expired this year and the 2nd 10-year license was not implemented as Collectors Universe and K3B have had some legal wrangling in the last few years. Keep in mind that Collectors Universe opened a paper money grading business in China under the name (if I recall correctly) PCGS Bank Note Grading. They could not use the name PCGS Currency as they had given the specific license for that name to K3B.
The result is that in 2019 Collectors Universe has now reclaimed the licensed name of PCGS Currency. However, I don't see how that entitles them to the work product of K3B over the last 10 years. Keep in mind that Collectors Universe sold the currency division to K3B. They would have to make other arrangements to obtain K3B's work product during the ten years that Collectors Universe did not own the work product of K3B operating under the licensed name of PCGS Currency.
It'll be interesting how this ultimately turns out.
since I have hundreds of PCGS graded notes
Figuring out where they finally would end
Up, at Legacy ? which to me makes no sense
Even though the product is the same and
The person that did the original grading is
As well, the name has changed so to me
Having a PCGS graded note in a Legacy
Registry would be idiotic and I would never
Consider sending everything in to get regraded, just not cost effective, something
For sure needs to be done though, hopefully
Something can be worked out so that
Notes that were originally PCGS stay
be it Collectors Universe or K3B , the name
On the holder is PCGS and that’s what’s
Important to me.
Unless the licensing agreement states PCGS acquires the data upon end of lease I don't see why they would have the rights to it. The work was performed by K3B. I believe the deal was just for name rights.
Because PCGS probably doesn't have the registry/population information probably explains why they won't be operating as "PCGS Currency" when they begin grading in 2020. They will be PCGS Banknotes.
Not defending PCGS Currency but the market doesn't consider them a distant 2nd. Sales prices between the two are generally similar.
With that said, I personally prefer PMG because of their crimped and laminated sleeves which has the label contained within. Interestingly, PCGS Gold Shield sleeves are like PMG so it begs to wonder if PCGS Banknotes will use the same.
Between Collectors Universe and K3B it’s
Impossible to tell how this will work out
But unless CU can get the rights to the
Registry I don’t see a positive result
But honestly from a financial stand point
It does no good to Legacy so selling those
Rights back would be there best move.
If the Pop reports aren't publicly available, it really hurts the hobby. If PCGS tells us how many MS67 Saints there are in a year, but NGC won't, or vice-versa, it's ridiculous.
And it hurts their business and bottom lines, too, IMO.
Entities, we are only talking about the currency part here, The key solution is to
Get the registry data back, however that
Gotcha....I have to remember to keep my currency and coin grading separate.
Tough to manage two different identities....just ask Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent.
Separate names with a comma.