PCGS vs. NGC - anyone send the exact same coin to both?

I'm wondering if anyone has sent the exact same coin to both PCGS and NGC. It's generally known that PCGS is stricter in grading coins, but I'm curious as to what the real life results are.

Similarly, if you sent the exact same coin twice to to the same grading company, will a different professional grader come up with the same grade? Or the same professional grader with a different grade?

I would assume that the display holders would have to be removed as a control for the experiment, otherwise looking at the display's grade will likely create bias. I'm also assuming that the physical condition of the coin has remained exactly the same throughout the process (e.g. no added scratches, nicks, etc. in between the grading by both companies).

Just curious!

 

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never actually sent a coin to be graded

 

On second thought, I guess it could actually just be sent one time. If you purchase an already graded coin by NGC, then send that same coin to PCGS, and vice versa. That would work, too.

 

Stricter? It just depends on whether or not you like Kool-Aid and what type of coin it is..

As a rule, I don't play the crack-out and/or resubmit game, but the last time I did, it was an 1898-O Morgan graded MS63DMPL by ANACS which I thought would grade MS64DMPL. It came back from NGC in a body bag for "Altered Surfaces". I sent it to PCGS, and it came back MS64PL. Go figure!

Also, if PCGS is considered stricter, why is it that they attribute FBL Frankies based on one set of bell lines and NGC attributes them based on both sets of bell lines?

Chris

 

I think it really depends on the series, e.g. I am currently looking at bust halves, and have the strong impression PCGS coins are usually "better" for the grade than coins graded by ANACS/NGC. But as mentioned before, NGC is stricter with other series... just submitted some coins to NGC that were ICG graded... can't wait to get them back.

 

This is a very hard question to answer. But let the seniors answer or those with submission services time under there belt garnish some answers...

 

I sent 4 coins to ngc, they all came back in detail slabs. I cracked them out, and sent them to pcgs, they all graded.

 

Would you mind telling us the series for each coin?

Chris

 

I would not hold to that - it could go the other way also. To me it is a toss up - like you said you can state it too ways.

I like the older PCGS slabs better - but will buy a coin in an PCGS, NGC, ANACs or ICG slag. For what I collect and look at the most I say PCGS is tougher on the coins. But that does not stop me from looking at(and buying) the other TPG's. I use TPG's on occasion, mostly PCGS for biggies. But depending on what I am getting graded I might use one of the others for different items.

 

My biggest submission difference? Sent a 1911 $2 1/2 to NGC, hoping for a 1911-D weak D. Came back AU53 no D. Cracked it out, did it again, came back 1911-D Weak D AU55. Score! And it makes me seriously wonder what kind of experts work at both grading companies!

 

They were morgans. I started a thread months ago, ill look for it. I think it was called tpg's what a joke.

 

Do a search on this forum. You will find hundreds of threads discussing this topic. It's probably the most re-hashed and beaten-to-death topic on USA coin forums.

Any dogmatic simple answer about P vs. N can be disproved by dozens of counter-examples. Your best bet is to know what you are doing regardless of what the little label in the plastic holder says.

 

I've sent graded NGC coins to PCGS that came back as problem coins (questionable color, cleaning, etc), and a couple NGC problem coins to PCGS that came back graded.
I've crossed NGC to PCGS that came back lower graded, higher, and the same grade, though only twice now has a coin been graded higher by PCGS, which tells me that PCGS is slightly more conservative in their grading.

 

Yeah, I perused through the web and this forum and found a lot of topics on PCGS vs. NGC. Most of the discussion revolved around which is "better" in the general sense, which demands a premium for the same given grade, which one someone should send their coins to, etc.

I probably missed the specific thread or perhaps a post within one of these similar topics discussing my question, which is more of an experiment to see if there is a strong (or no) correlation, namely testing the hypothesis that PCGS is stricter than NGC, by using the same exact coin which eliminates possible variability between two different but very similar coins.

 

My only experience with this sort of thing was when I sold a 1958 D Franklin NGC MS66 on eBay, and then later saw the same coin for sale on eBay in a PCGS holder graded MS66.

 

I've never paid for two gradings on the same coin, but I have bought slabbed coins, cracked them open, and resubmitted.

Had a Bustie in a PCGS "AU Details, Corrosion" slab. To me it looked like an "erosion field" from the die. ANACS agreed with me. That erosion field was not noted in the Overton Catalog, but the field looked exactly like those appearing on other Busties where Overton notes the variation.

I've also cracked some old copper (very early large cents and half-cents) with Details, Corrosion or Details, Environmental Damage....to ICG. They don't say this publicly, but they will "net grade" old copper if the pitting is modest. I'm batting .500 on these ICG attempts.

 

I rarely submit to NGC but have purchased NGC Graded coins for submission to PCGS. I suppose that could be considered the same as the subject matter.

At any rate, I purchased an NGC MS65 1978 Eisenhower Dollar.
Submitted it for Crossover Service to PCGS as I could have sworn it was an MS66
PCGS graded it MS64
I cracked it out of the PCGS Slab, submitted it raw
It came back MS65

I bought an ANACS grade 1961 Type B Washington which had a clip in an MS64(?) slab.
I submitted it for crossover service to PCGS and it came back Genuine Cleaned
I mailed the coin out to Mark Feld for his opinion and he showed it around to several well know dealers. Their opinion were mixed in that some detected what could have been a very light cleaning. Others graded it MS65.
When I got the coin back, I submitted it raw to PCGS and it came back in an MS63 holder.


Moral of the Story: Grading is an opinion and as such it is open to interpretation. There simply are NO ABSOLUTES, only OPINIONS. Coins may or may not receive the same grade as it really all depends upon how much money you are willing to throw at the TPG's, which they, of course, have no problem with at all.

Some folks look at this in a negative light in that, once a coin achieves the desired grade (by the submitter), then it is now at a point where resubmission could only achieve a downgrade and as such a loss of investment which may or may not make it a bad coin.

Too MUCH emphasis has been placed on and given to TPG's that it is now at the point where if a TPG does not approve of the coin, then its a bad coin and NOTHING could be further from the truth.

 

Yes, pre-graded coins would qualify.

I get that grading in general is an opinion and there are no absolutes. However, if PCGS is indeed following a stricter, written guideline on grading coins' issues with greater penalties, then over greater and greater numbers of data, the tendency for PCGS to grade coins lower than their NGC counterparts would be evident.

I would also think that coins sent in their holder with the grade on them would influence the new grade when the coin is (re)submitted, as you have shown one example of. As well as the possibility that it can go the other way.

Your point about too much emphasis makes sense. Collectors and dealers take advantage of TPG's grading for not just their authenticity guarantee, but their economic benefits. I understand that grades in general don't take away from the actual physical grade of the coin which has remained constant despite grader's differing opinions. I can also see people resubmitting coins raw until they get a higher grade, which makes economic sense, (and from this point forward is a little off topic) which may have a broader significance... why are coins being collected, for their numismatic value, or their intrinsic value? Perhaps the combination of both that makes it so appealing. Then perhaps, also, the lucrativeness of the TPG system in coin collecting has caused people to discover this coin hobby to begin with.