PCGS "Questionable Authenticity" on 1882 $3 Gold piece

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by MrCheeks, Oct 19, 2012.

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  1. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    At least in Nevada, it is inferred that every contract includes the covenant of good faith and fair dealing. I think under this concept, PCGS owed a duty to explain themselves sufficiently to allow the client to know the basic reasons for its determination.
     
    lonegunlawyer, Oct 23, 2012
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  3. MrCheeks

    MrCheeks Active Member

    I have to agree with you that they did not have to do what they did, however I think when it comes to a coin that could be worth a considerable amount, what they did should be standard practice. You say that you would wonder, but that they had lived up to their obligation by assigning "questionable authenticity" and leaving it at that, would you have asked them for an explanation or just let it go?
     
    MrCheeks, Oct 23, 2012
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  4. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    With NGC I have found their grading even of coins that cost me money due to details grades to be accurate. I have had PCI coins graded MS64 and MS65 grade at NGC fake and unc. details--a couple of reasons why they aren't in business any more.

    BTW those shark avatars aren't scary to me. The really scary lawyers have been depicted in movies such as "Pelican Brief".
     
    Owle, Oct 23, 2012
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  5. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Scary now?
     
    lonegunlawyer, Oct 23, 2012
    #104 + Quote Reply
  6. Owle

    Owle Junior Member

    4RkPd.jpg
     
    Owle, Oct 23, 2012
    #105 + Quote Reply
  7. tgaw

    tgaw Member

    i got a 1826 quarter back from pcgs that was graded and unfortunately also marked as cleaned so they do grade them i think unless a recent change as this was like 4 months ago.i do believe they favor high volume user though.just go on ebay for instance and track some of the big guys.i have sent coins that i felt were undergraded upon return,but i may just be wishing to much into them.
     
    tgaw, Oct 23, 2012
    #106 + Quote Reply
  8. Duke Kavanaugh

    Duke Kavanaugh The Big Coin Hunter

    It does exist and they put all the info on the holder for you.
     
    Duke Kavanaugh, Oct 23, 2012
    #107 + Quote Reply
  9. Duke Kavanaugh

    Duke Kavanaugh The Big Coin Hunter

    I would think the graders get more then a 15 min break after looking at coins fast and furious in a dark room with bright lights and looking thru a glass quite a bit, with high pressure the whole time.

    And even if you have that $63k number remember that there are 3 graders that grade them.
    Then remember that there is hard costs of the plastic, ink, paper, holograms, machines. And then there is labor for the phone people, catalogers, shipping labor ect.
    Oh yea and then they go to shows, have insurance on the coins they grade and many more expenses.
    If you think it's so easy, try it. Many have tried and they don't do it right IMO.
     
    Duke Kavanaugh, Oct 23, 2012
    #108 + Quote Reply
  10. longnine009

    longnine009 Darwin has to eat too. Supporter

    Shazam!
     
    longnine009, Oct 23, 2012
    #109 + Quote Reply
  11. Duke Kavanaugh

    Duke Kavanaugh The Big Coin Hunter

    Yep, Great Customer Service from both PCGS and NGC that is why they are the big boys.

    Now on to the conversation. They did not remember your coin. They used generic terms that apply to all counterfeit $3 gold pieces. And were just trying to keep a person that was expecting too much appeased IMO.
    But I'm glad your happy with it.
     
    Duke Kavanaugh, Oct 23, 2012
    #110 + Quote Reply
  12. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    Terms that apply to "all" coins of this type? That seems pretty absolute. Are you on the inside?
     
    lonegunlawyer, Oct 23, 2012
    #111 + Quote Reply
  13. Duke Kavanaugh

    Duke Kavanaugh The Big Coin Hunter

    If you mean a grader or employee for a TPGing company...NO lol but that would be nice.

    I meant that they said "the color on the coin" was not right, "details and strike were not what it needed" pretty much covers all non-authentic coins doesn't it? It sounds like language that would appease a person that would NEED to have some details on what was wrong with their coin lol.

    I can hear it now.

    Customer Service to Grader - (if it was even a grader, which I doubt) "we have a person that is annoying us and needs to know why a $3 gold piece is fake", will you make that call.

    Grader (if it is a grader) - sure I'll call him, I've seen 20 or so of these since that once was in so this shouldn't be hard.

    ​
     
    Duke Kavanaugh, Oct 24, 2012
    #112 + Quote Reply
  14. lonegunlawyer

    lonegunlawyer Numismatist Esq.

    I must admit, the reasons were pretty broad and could apply to most non-genuine $3 dollar gold pieces, especially the details and strike reasons.
     
    lonegunlawyer, Oct 24, 2012
    #113 + Quote Reply
  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    They gave 3 reasons - color, strike, and details. Of those 3, only 2 have any real meaning, strike and details. Color - color is a variable and always has been.

    Strike - more likely than not what they mean by strike is that all of the devices, lettering, & numerals on the coin are mushy. Now a lot of people don't understand what mushy means when it's used in reference to a coin. But in simple terms it means that the edges of the devices, lettering etc. are not sharp and crisp. Instead, they are rounded off/over, they flow smoothly into the fields instead of having a markedly defined delineation. Mushy, puts that into one word. And yes it is a very broad and generalized term that accurately describes the majority of counterfeits.

    Details not being what they needed to be, that's another story. And not having seen the coin in question it's impossible for us to say exactly what that means. But if the details were different in any way from the known genuine varieties, then that difference would be a flag indicating the coin is likely not genuine. And anyone who is thoroughly familiar with a given coin can usually just look at the coin for just a few seconds, and yes that's all it takes - a few seconds - and know for a fact that something is just not right. They may not be able to put their finger on it exactly, but they know something is different and that makes them suspicious as to whether the coin is genuine or not.

    It is only then that a grader would even bother picking up his loupe to look at the coin. 95% or more of all grading is done with the naked eye. Graders don't use loupes to grade coins except when the coin is possibly worthy of a 69 or 70. They just use their eyes.

    But once a grader does pick up that loupe, then he can look and see if the details match known genuine coins, or known fake coins, or not. Some of these diagnostics can be very small, tiny little marks. They might be a raised mark or they might be a depression. They might be a tool mark or a die scratch. Professional graders know these things, they don't need to look it up in a book. But they have the books if they need them. And a difference in details or a set of known diagnostics is pretty much the last nail in the coffin. They are the things that define a genuine coin, or a fake. And when you know what and where these diagnostics are on a given coin, again it only takes a few seconds to pick up your loupe and see them. Once seen, it's all over.

    Now for it to really have been an explanation they would of had to have said all of that, and more. They would have then had to have gone on and explain specifically which details were different or which diagnostics were found. But their goal is merely to get the customer to drop the issue, so they give a broad, generalized reason and hope that will be enough.

    Honestly, I'm pleasantly surprised you got that much out of PCGS as they are not known for having the best customer service. You should have bought a lottery ticket that day.

    Something that everyone should keep in mind - determining whether a coin is genuine or not is not always a simple matter. A coin have the correct weight, the correct size, the correct design details, even the correct specific gravity, and still be a fake. And it is with these coins that only an expert can tell you, with any degree of certainty after an in hand examination, it is a fake.

    And honestly, if NGC or PCGS tells you a coin has questionable authenticity, that should be enough 99.9% of the time.

    If you want to worry about something, worry about those rare occasions where they slab a coin as being genuine, when they are not. Luckily those coins are very few and far between.
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 24, 2012
    #114 + Quote Reply
  16. mrbrklyn

    mrbrklyn New Member

    once they slab it, it is 100% genuine.
     
    mrbrklyn, Oct 24, 2012
    #115 + Quote Reply
  17. longnine009

    longnine009 Darwin has to eat too. Supporter

    Does anyone know if TPGs ever released data
    about what the favorite size is for struck counterfeits.
    Seems like they would get better striking pressure
    on small coins. I always heard they liked large coins
    for casting because the shrinkage was less obvious but I
    never heard if the have size preference for struck counterfeits.
     
    longnine009, Oct 24, 2012
    #116 + Quote Reply
  18. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    The good news here is if they do make the mistake and slab a counterfeit coin, PCGS/NGC both make it right.
     
    Leadfoot, Oct 24, 2012
    #117 + Quote Reply
  19. Collect89

    Collect89 Coin Collector

    One time I was told (and it seemed reasonable to me) that counterfeiters of gold coins made more small coins than large coins simply because they could make more of them with the valuable gold they had. Therefore, $1 through $5 were counterfeited more than $10 Eagles. By the same math $10 eagles would be counterfeited more than $20 double eagles. Of course, we were discussing deceiving struck counterfeits of US gold coins.
     
    Collect89, Oct 24, 2012
    #118 + Quote Reply
  20. longnine009

    longnine009 Darwin has to eat too. Supporter

    Yes that would make sense. But I'm thinking all coin
    in general. Not because of the PMs that might go
    into coins but because it just seems like they'd get a
    better stike using floor jacks or shot gun blasts or
    whatever. But I guess if they have counterfeiting
    rings in China with rolling mills they probably have
    mint presses too and coin size might not matter
    anymore. :(
     
    longnine009, Oct 24, 2012
    #119 + Quote Reply
  21. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Rolling mills ? First I've heard of that. These are what they use -

    chinese_counterfeiters_coin_press.jpg

    chinese_fake_coin_operation.jpg

    And as you can see from the dies, they really have no preference for large or small.

    fake_chinese_coin_dies.jpg
     
    GDJMSP, Oct 24, 2012
    #120 + Quote Reply
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