PCGS Overpriced vs NGC

I think I have to agree with you about some of the PCGS and NGC 70 slabs. I have not given up though and I do pay a premium for a coin graded 70. One other thing about NGC slabbed coins: I've sent an NGC 70 graded coin to NGC to have it re-slabbed in the newer NGC scratch resistant edgeview holder. NGC called and told me that the coin no longer graded 70. They don't sell coins and had been trying to find one for me that graded 70 but were unsuccessful. They immediately sent me the NGC listed price for the coin. (Which was a lot higher than what I paid. I refuse to pay more than 80% or less of NGC's listed price.) Try that at PCGS; esp. with a Lincoln cent.

 

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I never really looked at 69's trying to find 70's, so I'll have to take your word on that. It's intuitively plausible, anyway.

The trouble with 70's is that a perception exists of them as "rare and desirable" when in the real world they're the expected result and frequently achieved. A Proof 70 means nothing whatsoever to me, except the Mint did their job right that time. MS70's for circulating issues, now, there's something worth having.

That is, if one existed.

 

SuperDave just posted: "I haven't made a goal out of studying 70's in various TPG slabs..." Well, I have! "...over the last ten years or so;" I've been looking much longer than that using actual slabbed coins to see how they are being graded." " ...but all the same when the occasion arises I check them out in Heritage images, a dozen or two at a time. So any opinion I offer has to be anecdotal, since I've only looked at - maybe - two thousand over the years." WOW, two thousand! Probably a day's work for one young, rookie grader at a TPGS.

Heritage images? I'm curious, how many ANACS and ICG 70's have you actually seen imaged by Heritage? More than two? Therefore, IMO, you are not qualified to be posting off-the-cuff, misinformed comments about ANACS or ICG coins graded 70! Nevertheless, the quote below is typical and it appears based on nothing but "a feeling."

QUOTE="SuperDave, post: 2546853, member: 1892"]And neither ICG nor ANACS have a clue.[/QUOTE]

 

There's a difference, sir, between one "lying" and simply believing something to be true and passing it on. I've no reason to doubt you or what you say about this gentleman, but if you think about the stated claim, there's much to question. If there really was some conspiracy, and coins awarded certain grades due only to the submitter, there are other, much easier ways to accomplish this on the downlow than searching out, from shops who are supposedly onto it, already graded examples to remove from their lesser holders. Now, if this individual is cherrying select coins he believes will upgrade, that's a different story altogether.

As for Elvis... very good, sir. I didn't think of Vegas.

 

"MS70's for circulating issues, now, there's something worth having.

That is, if one existed."
Pretty much an impossibility since the coins minted for circulation are not minted with the same care that proof and ms uncirculated coins destined for collectors are.

 

He very well could have been (searching out 70's that were graded 69). However, that is not what the owner was implying or actually said. The implication was that he worked for PCGS, picked up a lot of NGC 69's, and would be submitting them to PCGS to be upgraded to 70's.

 

Sorry, I should have mentioned that I have never sent any coins to PCGS for grading, crossover, or re-holdering. I did hear from another dealer that sends many coins to PCGS that they are no longer guaranteeing the grade on Lincoln cents. Now I don't know if this is for certain PCGS holders (generational). This is just something he told me as I was purchasing some PCGS and NGC slabbed coins.

 

Has EVERYBODY lost the ability to see? PCGS says, "Who are you going to trust? My blue labels or your lying eyes?" And for too many, the answer is a dumb blue label, because that's what "The Market" (ooooooh, ahhhhhh, shiiiiiinyyyyy) will accept.

 

Which is my point.

If the Mint very carefully produces and handles the production in order to keep it as pristine as possible, why, then, do collectors pay extra money when they get it right? If 75% of a given issue in slabs is adjudicated a 70, why is extra value assigned to that grade?

 

[/QUOTE]
@Insider, there's only one truth that tells me this might be over the edge on snark. Remember the mini-scandal about Chicago show 1964-2014 gold Kennedy halves? PCGS and NGC slabbed more coins as "show coins" than were sold there. (The whole excess was due to PCGS standards sloppiness.) The research showed that VIRTUALLY NO ONE (less than 20 for sure) was getting them slabbed by ANACS at the show. There HAS TO BE a reason for this, doesn't there? As I recall, all services ran just under 50% PF70.

 

Unfortunately, the way you have "framed" your reply has made it INVALID. In virtually every case of modern US coinage (even the Proofs) the rate of MS?PR-70's does not approach 75%.

Through the years, originally and as-made perfection has become the norm for advanced, informed, collectors. Indeed, why would any collector pay extra money for an MS-70? Check out the prices decades old MS-70 common (?) coins (at the time they were minted) bring.

 

@Insider, there's only one truth that tells me this might be over the edge on snark. Remember the mini-scandal about Chicago show 1964-2014 gold Kennedy halves? PCGS and NGC slabbed more coins as "show coins" than were sold there. (The whole excess was due to PCGS standards sloppiness.) The research showed that VIRTUALLY NO ONE (less than 20 for sure) was getting them slabbed by ANACS at the show. There HAS TO BE a reason for this, doesn't there? As I recall, all services ran just under 50% PF70.[/QUOTE]

I value your opinion!

1. There is a 25% difference from the quoted percent. Further, In my experience the first coins issued have a higher % of 70's than the coins that have kicked around in original tubes or were sent out from the Mint months later.

2. I'll bet we can count on our fingers and toes the number of MS/PR-70 ANACS and ICG coins that have been auctioned and imaged at Heritage. I'll even concede the fingers and toes of two people.

3. We are discussing grades of MS/PR-70 not labels. I know for a fact that "First Strike" and "Early Release" is a marketing scheme. For example, one unnamed service has allowed coins received thirty days after the issue date to be labeled "Early Release."

4. When any TPGS (including the XXX Fly-by-Nights) deserves a compliment I'll give it. When any TPGS is disparaged, I'll defend them.

Using what I consider from experience to be fair and acceptable standards : I've seen examples from each of the four major grading services of over graded, under graded, correctly graded, and "details" coins that are straight graded over the years. The only difference between the top four TPGS is the % of each of these judgements them have made.

IMO, ICG and ANACS do as good a job as NGC and PCGS and I guarantee we can find many, many instances when they did better. From what I see at shows, collectors keep them busy accepting submissions. Nevertheless, for all the reasons posted OVER & OVER on CT, I personally recommend PCGS if you want to get the most money or action on your coin - and you'll pay for that.

So, I like to think there is a difference between any "close to snark" comments about a misleading post and the actual, verifiable opinions I try to post.

 

Which as Brooks mentioned makes no sense when you logically think about it. How would anyone know he worked for PCGS/Why would he go around telling people if that were actually true? Why not just order a ton of coins off ebay where 69s are everywhere for cheap? There's so many questions that just have no good logical answer for that rumor to seem plausible.

 

Very few people will agree with that for moderns which is really where the entire 69/70 debate centers around.

 

Imagine the scuffle if it didn't.

Actually, I'm looking forward to the PAN show because ANACS and SEGS will be there. The physical attributes of the SEGS slab interest me, and I figure I can learn from talking to anybody. I plan to take one of the ANACS slabs that look PCGSy with me to ask them what the point is.

I'm still wary of a claim like ICG and ANACS are just as good as NGC and PCGS. Each have their niche and their merit. For example, I just REALLY REALLY dislike the physical PCGS slab itself, and I'm not too choked up about the quarter-round ANACS top, either. But ICG and NGC being similar? At the same point in time, like NOW? I dunno, hard to swallow.

 

Are you serious? A person should be very proud to work for PCGS. One radio Host puts it this way: Out of all the athletes that play football, only a very few make it to the professional leagues and of that, fewer of them are stand-outs. IMO, the long-time, highly paid top group of core TPGS professionals are the stand-outs just as the heads of the major coin dealerships. It would take an extremely humble little rookie grader to keep his mouth shut about what he does for a living when in his long time LCD. Besides, his opinion is valuable to the LCD. Heck, if I worked for PCGS as a grader YOU WOULD ALL KNOW IT!

 

I agree with you 100%! IMO, if you want liberally graded moderns with higher grades that bring extra money for dealers from uneducated collectors then DO NOT use a more conservative grading service like ANACS or ICG!

 

IMO, from what I see at coin shows ICG, ANACS, NGC, and PCGS coins are graded similarly. I can honestly say this because I've done something for years in an effort to learn grading.

Anytime you are looking at coins that are slabbed by a major service, cover the grade and guess. If you are competent, have studied the various coin grading guides, and after looking at hundreds of slabs in your favorite denomination, I think you will be surprised at the result and better understand my post.

I should guess that you of all people CAN ALREADY DO THIS! That is why your post is confusing me.

 

That was a bit strange, but think they should switch to those over what they currently use.

You will find most people will agree with you on that. There is a reason the market prices have become what they have and that the majority of the top end stuff is either in PCGS or NGC slabs.

Really? That is actually my favorite one by far, I much prefer the clear look. I like when NGC uses the black inserts or their clear rings around the coin that I have seen a few times, but those white prongs on certain coins bug the hell out of me. A half dime with those prongs is just a big old sigh for me. The new NGC label though I do like a lot more then the old one, I thought that was a nice improvement.

 

That's certainly reasonable, but in context, the other gentleman's (danmar) accusation/claim simply makes no sense. Sure, it's possible, if this individual works for PCGS , he could've mentioned it at a different time, but still, why on earth would he, knowing he said this, then announce not only his supposed reason for buying but also that they're going to get this blind and automatic upgrade? That's the key here... I'm sorry, but this little story fits perfectly with the paranoia infecting this hobby and not with plain and simple common sense. If such a thing was, in fact, happening, like baseball said there are other avenues to easily acquire such coins on the downlow; there's simply no reason to purchase from some big mouthed dealer and take ANY chance at outing something that so clearly would want to be kept secret. The whole idea is akin to those afraid that a top TPG will swap coins on them, risking reputation and a business worth countless multiples of some insignificant little coin.

Just to be clear, I don't doubt danmar's sincerity or that he was told this, I doubt the the flapping lips.