PCGS/NGC Reference Thread - Who's Stricter by Series

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by CamaroDMD, May 17, 2020.

  1. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    I'm sorry, but there are many PCGS details graded coins purchased from Heritage that end up straight graded by ICG and sold by certain eBay vendor(s) IMHO. I don't remember the date, but there was a better date early Eagle in PCGS AU details with obvious salt water damage that was straight graded as AU something by ICG. It then was consigned to GC after it couldn't be sold elsewhere. It sold for more in the PCGS AU details holder.

    I didn't make a list, but I have seen multiple examples of coins like this skating by ICG. For some reason, this service sees more puttied and other altered gold (in my experience) than the other services. I have seen too many blatantly AT Peace, Morgan, and Ike Dollars in ICG plastic for comfort. And ICG is only treated slightly better than raw in the larger market. Maybe their personal standards aren't looser, but those imposed on them by corporate are IMO and it looks like the larger market agrees which is too bad as it started out really strong and then went down after the flip with ANACS. Sad.
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  3. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    When it first started ICG was tough on gold and usually fairly accurate (within a point of PCGS or NGC with many crossing at grade). It was looser on moderns and at the superb gem and better grade. At one point, ICG CDN bid levels for sight unseen were within 10% the PCGS/NGC blue sheet bid point. ANACS had its fans but some preferred ICG. It was highly respected. After the staff switch it reversed and ICG loosened IMHO.

    I liked the old ICG very much and still cherry them for rips. My favorite was an ICG MS67 gold dollar (the real gold ones) that went MS66+ at PCGS and CAC and made money on.
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  4. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Dear EyeAppealingCoins,

    All I will say is there is PURE :blackeye: JUNK in every TPGS holder. PCGS & NGS do a MUCH LARGER number of coins than ICG or ANACS. Therefore, from what I've seen, there is more damaged and altered surface JUNK in their :stinkyfeet: slabs than ours. I'll add more grade stretching also.

    Remember, the TPGS's claim to assign a value or determine market acceptability. I find it hard to believe that the high-paid, expert, professional graders :cigar: at the top two services miss as much crap as they do :jawdrop::facepalm: WITHOUT MAKING a conscious :bookworm: decision to ignore it!!

    As for puttied gold, I guarantee that PCGS was always the hands down #1 winner by a very large margin in this regard. Thankfully, it appears they have finally learned something or the "sniffer" is catching it for their graders.
    GoldFinger1969, micbraun and Tater like this.
  5. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    1553818659749962454.jpg -7473707641096953253.jpg
    GoldFinger1969 and Tater like this.
  6. Tater

    Tater Coin Collector

  7. Insider

    Insider Talent on loan from...

    Tater, posted: :nailbiting:

    There is a lot to be discussed on this coin or ANY coin graded by ANY grading service.

    Remember anyone who tries can find under graded, over graded and correctly graded coins in slabs. .

    I don't agree with EVERY graded coin at ANY place I worked - including some of my shall I say - "oversights." :oops::facepalm::eggface:
  8. GoldFinger1969

    GoldFinger1969 Well-Known Member

    What do you mean "after the flip" ?
  9. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    I think we can all agree on this.
    Insider likes this.
  10. drbrummer

    drbrummer Active Member

    In my preferred series, seated dimes, NGC seems much more willing to award AU grades, particularly on coins with minimal luster if the details are there for the grade.
  11. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    So many of them are really EF50 and EF53?
  12. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    The staff from ANACS became new ICG. The staff from old ICG became the new ANACS. This was several years ago.
  13. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    Historically NGC has been stricter on strike designations.

    The FT requires complete separation of horizontal bands and vertical bands for Roosevelt Dimes. PCGS'S FB designation requires separation of horizontal bands.

    The FS designation at PCGS requires 5 full steps (except for ultra, ultra moderns) where at NGC it was 6 steps. In April 2003, NGC abandoned its FS designation in favor of 5FS and 6FS designations respectively.

    The FB designation at NGC for Mercury Dimes required full rounded bands where as long as there was separation, it would typically FB at PCGS.

    The FBL designation requires separation of upper and lower bell lines at NGC where as the CAC and PCGS definition requires only the bottom bands.

    On other designations:

    For RD copper PCGS requires 95%+ percent full red; 5%< RB < 95%, and BN is <5%. NGC's threshold I have seen published and confirmed with David Lange was 90% full red (as low as 85% for some issues). Anything lower down to 5% RD is RB. <5% is BN. In practice, neither is consistent with copper color designations. Not all of it is from coins turning in holders in my opinion and experience.

    For cameo contrasts, theoretically NGC's CAM and PCGS CAM are equivalent by definition as our NGC's UCAM and PCGS DCAM definitions. In my opinion (shared by many dealers with cameo coins that regularly sell both), NGC had been historically looser and allowed breaks in frost that would have disqualified coins at PCGS. For older coins, the PCGS population reports and NGC Census mirror those observations with exceptions.

    For PL and DMPL/DPL, both services have tightened their standards. Many OGH/rattler and no line fatty coins would not PL or DMPL today. I have seen DPL/DMPL coins that wouldn't PL today.
  14. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    As for grading, neither service has been consistent and there are periods of alternating loosening and tightening. Both are tighter today than a few years ago IMO. The higher up on the scale you go, the snootier PCGS is (moderns excepted - do they actually really grade those things? Some times you have to wonder. )But in PCGS land luster forgives a lot. NGC is more giving of luster if a coin is otherwise there technically.

    For most series, it is a mixed bag. For two areas, however, I do believe that PCGS is generally tougher and the PCGS/NGC spread are the highest. These are:

    Early federal coins (and especially Capped Bust Half Dollars).
    Antebellum gold (especially the rarer stuff - think early federal, proof gold, Charlotte/Dahlonega pieces, etc.).
  15. CamaroDMD

    CamaroDMD [Insert Clever Title]

    Wasn’t that like 10 years ago? I’d imagine a lot of people who worked then are gone.
  16. EyeAppealingCoins

    EyeAppealingCoins Well-Known Member

    It was the beginnng of the shift in TPG reputation for many dealers and collectors. Both have their fans. I don't remember the year.
  17. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Can you please point us to the areas which were puttied? I see wear and wonder how this coin graded MS66, but I fail to see the areas where putty was applied.
  18. St Gaudens collector

    St Gaudens collector Active Member

    There are 2 guitar pick shaped clumps of putty near her waistline just under the fold of her dress that are pinkish in color that are a give-away.
    Look for that color distributed in the fields and applied to bag marks on the devices.
  19. Tater

    Tater Coin Collector

    You know I've never thought of it that way Luster Land and PCGS but you are right especially when it comes to peace dollars. I've seen a lot of luster bomb 63's in 64 and even 65 labels.
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