Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Tin_Man_0, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

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  3. cpm9ball

    cpm9ball CANNOT RE-MEMBER

    For Lincoln cents, it doesn't surprise me at all. If I recall, PCGS made a lot of hoopla when they graded a 2003 Lincoln as MS70, but it was eventually downgraded and cost PCGS $15,000.

  4. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector Supporter

    Business strike coins don't receive the same care at the Mint that proof coins do.
    The Mint has no intention of doing so.
    It's no surprise to me that there are no MS-70's but plenty PF-70's.
    paddyman98 likes this.
  5. paddyman98

    paddyman98 Let me burst your bubble! Supporter

    This is the only MS70 I know of
    BuffaloHunter, Atarian, dwhiz and 3 others like this.

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well, if you think that's a surprise, take a look at this. But first, better make sure your're sitting down.

    This link is the current Total Population report for PCGS -

    As you can see they have graded over 4.3 million coins as 70. That's Proof and business strike combined.

    But things were a bit different not all so long ago. This is what the Total Population report looked like near the end of 2003.


    Oct 2003.jpg

    As you can see, Proof and MS70 combined are under 5,000, with only 215 of them being MS. And that's out of ALL US coins, half cents through $20 - only 215 graded MS70. And not a single one was copper - not 1.

    Today, from just cents alone there's close to 80,000 graded MS70. Quite a difference wouldn't ya say ? And yet you're surprised there are no MS70 cents dated prior to '59.

    Me, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that they did what they did ! And if ya want a bigger surprise, I can provide that too. For in just 2 years those 215 MS70 coins, it increased to almost 15,000 MS70 coins ! 2 Years !!!

    PCGS 3.jpg

    Apr 2006.jpg

    What you see above is an illustration, proof in black and white, of just how drastically they changed their grading standards in 2004. It was like throwing a light switch. One day there are almost no MS70 coins, next day there are thousands of them. And in just a few years - millions !

    I guess my point is, if you want your surprise to fade away, just wait a while. From the looks of things they'll accommodate you ;)
    Terrifrompa and LakeEffect like this.
  7. GoldBug999

    GoldBug999 Active Member

    Awesome perspective - thank you!!
  8. Prez2

    Prez2 Well-Known Member

    Never used that stuff but have considered it. Afraid to try I suppose.
    paddyman98 likes this.
  9. khalil elara

    khalil elara Active Member

    hi paddyman it is been a long time since i said something to u but u that ms 70 bottle is it considered cleaning or not because i used it in the past and i want your opinion that thanks a million
    paddyman98 likes this.
  10. Jaelus

    Jaelus The Hungarian Antiquarian Supporter

    How does one change their grading standards on MS70? Either it's flawless or it isn't. There isn't any room for interpretation here.

    I don't believe in MS70. I think it's silly to make a distinction between a 70 and a 69. Graders don't look at the coins long enough to make a grade of 70 credible. It just means they didn't find a visible flaw in a 2 second scan of the coin - that's not good enough for me to put any stock in it.
  11. calcol

    calcol Supporter! Supporter

    I'm not about to say that grading standards didn't change. However, I would guess than most of the coins that graded 70 after year 2000 were recently issued coins. Perhaps in the new millennium, the mints had increased the quality of their output. And in the case of bullion coins, the authorized dealers were more careful in handling coins and selecting the best for grading. Now that third party grading had become firmly established, customers of the mints and authorized dealers were expecting the coins to be as close to perfect as possible. So the mints and authorized dealers responded accordingly. Technological advances would have enhanced quality of mint products as well.

    I have several coins graded MS70 or PR70 by PCGS or NGC. All were issued since 2000. When I look at them with a magnifier, I cannot find a flaw.

    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  12. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    That's some serious BS going on right there. They're obviously not really just grading coins, maybe they're purposely making PCGS MS70 coins extremely rare to ensure they have the highest return on top pops? Just like you said, they'll flip the switch collect big on a string of MS68-70s and then stop for a while to keep it rare. It caught my attention because I was looking to see if they had graded any of the W cents and zero MS70s is just flat out BS. Westpoint produces all the special coins and MS70 is practically their middle name. Everything I've seen that doesn't have PMD is either 69 or 70 bearing the W mint mark. If you think about it, it's so stupid too. It's costing them a whole lot of money by doing things this way. I can't imagine how many coins were sent to NGC instead of PCGS because they did issue MS70s.

    BTW, they did "flip the switch" already. From 1959 to 2018 they issued a grand total of 952 MS69 Lincoln cents. Check out how many 2019W cents got the MS69 grading**. There not being any MS70s isn't due to grading standards, it's corp policy. Me personally, for the amount of money they charge to grade and encase a coin, I'd want a report of some sort indicating observations and points made or removed to explain the final grade. I'm surprised anyone, especially anyone who thinks they have a really nice coin, would ever send to PCGS; it's automatic they'll be graded at least 1 grade below what anywhere else would grade it simply because it's pretty reasonable to assume there aren't going to be any MS70s ever. Not for Half, Large, Bust, Head, Hair, Eagle, Indian, Lincoln or otherwise has there ever been any MS70s ever by PCGS' standards.

    **Over 1,907 2019W Lincoln cents were graded MS69
  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Uhhhh, that's not exactly true. That's merely what the pop numbers they show now say. The pop numbers on their website, they change those all the time.

    By the end of 2003 PCGS had graded 470 Lincoln cents as MS69 - and no 70s. By the beginning of 2006 they had graded 1,209 Lincoln cents as MS69, and they had graded 15 of them as MS70. And in the years that followed, those numbers increased substantially.

    This is written in black and white in their own publications, the paper copies of the the pop reports that I showed previously. And no, not in the pics I posted above, those pics only show the summaries. But they do show those exact numbers in the individual listings. And the paper copies, they can't change them at will like they do on their website. Once published it's out there.

    Did ya ever wonder why PCGS changed their policy on guaranteeing the grade of copper coins ? You do know they no longer guarantee the grade - don't you ? Well this is why. They got so much flack over what they were doing from people who know coins, and saw what they were doing - that they simply had to change things.

    So what'd they do ? They began buying up the high grade coins, under their guarantee, and downgrading them. And once they had 'em all cleaned up, their guarantee went poof !

    And it wasn't just PCGS, NGC did their thing too. This book, published in Aug. of 2004 -

    It list all the pops for NGC slabbed coins, granted, modern coins only - which they defined as dated '65 and later. The pops they listed in the book were only for coins they had graded by the end of 2003. There's a grand total of 22 Lincoln cents graded as MS69 - and no 70s. By the end of 2004, those numbers had skyrocketed and included 70s !

    That's the thing about paper copies of pop reports, they tell ya things the TPGs would really rather you didn't know. But it took 'em a little bit to figure that out and stop publishing paper copies of their pop reports. Luckily for them, very few people have those paper copies. Unluckily for them, there's a few people like me.
  14. whopper64

    whopper64 Active Member

    No matter how many 70 grades are issued by PCGS and NGC, they are always adding to that total. Keep in mind, PCGS and NGC are only publishing the 70 grades that they have graded, that does not count for the thousands that have not been submitted. Either way, please do not invest in common coins, no matter what the grade. Inflation and the market have not been kind to investors of common coins over the last 50 years or so. Great to collect for any other reason, but not as an investment!
  15. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    Wait, what am I missing here. If MS70s were issued what happened to them? I highly doubt they got lost and/or made their way to circulation. 3K+ plus coins don't just disappear. Does PCGS grading expire or something that I'm not aware? I can't imagine anyone with an MS70 grade would every voluntarily resubmit for grading cuz there's nowhere to go but down! So what gives?

    BTW, if PCGS and NGC had any smart moves left, that would be it. Expiring certs would ensure quality and having the buying party have to renew a cert would mean pcgs would get a cut every time the coin changes hands. Don't be surprised if that's what's next.
  16. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I told ya what happened to them. As the coins came on the market PCGS bought them. Then they put them in downgraded slabs, and put them back them back on the market and sold them.

    Problem solved.
  17. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    All of those MS70 oins came in sets. No business strikes in 70.
  18. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    How many of those 70 grades are for ASE's? Probably 4 million.
    Which to me aren't really circulating coins as they are just 1 ounce bullion rounds. And then almost all the other 70 grades are likely proof coins.
  19. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    It's easy enough to go look and see, the pop reports will tell ya. 'Course they won't tell ya about the one that PCGS has removed already - like the 15 Lincoln cents I mentioned above.

    But if ya go look you'll find that they are not all bullion coins or modern commems. Granted the majority of them are. But there's plenty of regular coins mixed in there.

    Of course that doesn't change the fact that until they changed grading standards 70s were very, very few in number - and that included bullion coins and modern commems. But once they did change standards, those numbers exploded !

    Before they changed standards, those few 70 grade bullion coins, they sold for thousands of dollars each. Within 2 years - they could be bought for pocket change.
  20. Tin_Man_0

    Tin_Man_0 Active Member

    And to add insult to injury PCGS now as a "Proof like" classification. How proof like could it be if they ain't grading not 1 as MS70.

    I guess the reason this is bothering me is both grading lazyness of pcgs, but also what it says about pennies. As far as I can see, every other denomination has some MS70s, but pennies, ain't getting no love. Like they're all flawed or something.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2019
  21. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Being proof like has absolutely nothing to do with being a 70

    There's nothing lazy about nor does every other denomination have MS 70s. There's a couple of ATB quarters, 1 Kennedy Half, 1 special finish Native American dollar and thats basically it for MS 70 business strike coins. A minute or two of research would have revealed this
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