Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by Tin_Man_0, Sep 18, 2019.
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The Mint has no intention of doing so.
It's no surprise to me that there are no MS-70's but plenty PF-70's.
Well, if you think that's a surprise, take a look at this. But first, better make sure your're sitting down.
This link is the current Total Population report for PCGS -
As you can see they have graded over 4.3 million coins as 70. That's Proof and business strike combined.
But things were a bit different not all so long ago. This is what the Total Population report looked like near the end of 2003.
As you can see, Proof and MS70 combined are under 5,000, with only 215 of them being MS. And that's out of ALL US coins, half cents through $20 - only 215 graded MS70. And not a single one was copper - not 1.
Today, from just cents alone there's close to 80,000 graded MS70. Quite a difference wouldn't ya say ? And yet you're surprised there are no MS70 cents dated prior to '59.
Me, I'm absolutely flabbergasted that they did what they did ! And if ya want a bigger surprise, I can provide that too. For in just 2 years those 215 MS70 coins, it increased to almost 15,000 MS70 coins ! 2 Years !!!
What you see above is an illustration, proof in black and white, of just how drastically they changed their grading standards in 2004. It was like throwing a light switch. One day there are almost no MS70 coins, next day there are thousands of them. And in just a few years - millions !
I guess my point is, if you want your surprise to fade away, just wait a while. From the looks of things they'll accommodate you
Awesome perspective - thank you!!
Never used that stuff but have considered it. Afraid to try I suppose.
hi paddyman it is been a long time since i said something to u but u that ms 70 bottle is it considered cleaning or not because i used it in the past and i want your opinion that thanks a million
How does one change their grading standards on MS70? Either it's flawless or it isn't. There isn't any room for interpretation here.
I don't believe in MS70. I think it's silly to make a distinction between a 70 and a 69. Graders don't look at the coins long enough to make a grade of 70 credible. It just means they didn't find a visible flaw in a 2 second scan of the coin - that's not good enough for me to put any stock in it.
I have several coins graded MS70 or PR70 by PCGS or NGC. All were issued since 2000. When I look at them with a magnifier, I cannot find a flaw.
That's some serious BS going on right there. They're obviously not really just grading coins, maybe they're purposely making PCGS MS70 coins extremely rare to ensure they have the highest return on top pops? Just like you said, they'll flip the switch collect big on a string of MS68-70s and then stop for a while to keep it rare. It caught my attention because I was looking to see if they had graded any of the W cents and zero MS70s is just flat out BS. Westpoint produces all the special coins and MS70 is practically their middle name. Everything I've seen that doesn't have PMD is either 69 or 70 bearing the W mint mark. If you think about it, it's so stupid too. It's costing them a whole lot of money by doing things this way. I can't imagine how many coins were sent to NGC instead of PCGS because they did issue MS70s.
BTW, they did "flip the switch" already. From 1959 to 2018 they issued a grand total of 952 MS69 Lincoln cents. Check out how many 2019W cents got the MS69 grading**. There not being any MS70s isn't due to grading standards, it's corp policy. Me personally, for the amount of money they charge to grade and encase a coin, I'd want a report of some sort indicating observations and points made or removed to explain the final grade. I'm surprised anyone, especially anyone who thinks they have a really nice coin, would ever send to PCGS; it's automatic they'll be graded at least 1 grade below what anywhere else would grade it simply because it's pretty reasonable to assume there aren't going to be any MS70s ever. Not for Half, Large, Bust, Head, Hair, Eagle, Indian, Lincoln or otherwise has there ever been any MS70s ever by PCGS' standards.
**Over 1,907 2019W Lincoln cents were graded MS69
Uhhhh, that's not exactly true. That's merely what the pop numbers they show now say. The pop numbers on their website, they change those all the time.
By the end of 2003 PCGS had graded 470 Lincoln cents as MS69 - and no 70s. By the beginning of 2006 they had graded 1,209 Lincoln cents as MS69, and they had graded 15 of them as MS70. And in the years that followed, those numbers increased substantially.
This is written in black and white in their own publications, the paper copies of the the pop reports that I showed previously. And no, not in the pics I posted above, those pics only show the summaries. But they do show those exact numbers in the individual listings. And the paper copies, they can't change them at will like they do on their website. Once published it's out there.
Did ya ever wonder why PCGS changed their policy on guaranteeing the grade of copper coins ? You do know they no longer guarantee the grade - don't you ? Well this is why. They got so much flack over what they were doing from people who know coins, and saw what they were doing - that they simply had to change things.
So what'd they do ? They began buying up the high grade coins, under their guarantee, and downgrading them. And once they had 'em all cleaned up, their guarantee went poof !
And it wasn't just PCGS, NGC did their thing too. This book, published in Aug. of 2004 -
It list all the pops for NGC slabbed coins, granted, modern coins only - which they defined as dated '65 and later. The pops they listed in the book were only for coins they had graded by the end of 2003. There's a grand total of 22 Lincoln cents graded as MS69 - and no 70s. By the end of 2004, those numbers had skyrocketed and included 70s !
That's the thing about paper copies of pop reports, they tell ya things the TPGs would really rather you didn't know. But it took 'em a little bit to figure that out and stop publishing paper copies of their pop reports. Luckily for them, very few people have those paper copies. Unluckily for them, there's a few people like me.
BTW, if PCGS and NGC had any smart moves left, that would be it. Expiring certs would ensure quality and having the buying party have to renew a cert would mean pcgs would get a cut every time the coin changes hands. Don't be surprised if that's what's next.
I told ya what happened to them. As the coins came on the market PCGS bought them. Then they put them in downgraded slabs, and put them back them back on the market and sold them.
Which to me aren't really circulating coins as they are just 1 ounce bullion rounds. And then almost all the other 70 grades are likely proof coins.
It's easy enough to go look and see, the pop reports will tell ya. 'Course they won't tell ya about the one that PCGS has removed already - like the 15 Lincoln cents I mentioned above.
But if ya go look you'll find that they are not all bullion coins or modern commems. Granted the majority of them are. But there's plenty of regular coins mixed in there.
Of course that doesn't change the fact that until they changed grading standards 70s were very, very few in number - and that included bullion coins and modern commems. But once they did change standards, those numbers exploded !
Before they changed standards, those few 70 grade bullion coins, they sold for thousands of dollars each. Within 2 years - they could be bought for pocket change.
And to add insult to injury PCGS now as a "Proof like" classification. How proof like could it be if they ain't grading not 1 as MS70.
I guess the reason this is bothering me is both grading lazyness of pcgs, but also what it says about pennies. As far as I can see, every other denomination has some MS70s, but pennies, ain't getting no love. Like they're all flawed or something.
Being proof like has absolutely nothing to do with being a 70
There's nothing lazy about nor does every other denomination have MS 70s. There's a couple of ATB quarters, 1 Kennedy Half, 1 special finish Native American dollar and thats basically it for MS 70 business strike coins. A minute or two of research would have revealed this
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