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Message:: [QUOTE="gboulton, post: 1066226, member: 27043"]This thought has struck me again and again, every time I read that cliche...and it's probably the single biggest reason I will not buy any slabbed coin. I read that time and time again.  Someone complains about a grade, or asks about the reliability of a TPG, or is pondering buying a particular coin "Graded OMG104 by Coins be We!" or whatever...and every single time, people on here with superb reputations, decades of experience in the hobby, thousands of coins in their collection, and frequently official titles by their name say the same thing: "Buy the coin, not the holder" I'm just a neophyte...I've got less than a decade doing this, and have less in my whole collection than some of you have in single coins.  But I'm OBSESSIVE about reason, logic, and prima facie arguments.... And that one has "None Of The Above" It doesn't even hold water at first glance.  If the expert opinion is to buy the coin, not the holder, then the expert opinion is that the coin is more important than the holder. That's a problem for two reasons. First, if I'm considering resale value of the coin, either immediately or in the future, then those to whom I am likely to sell the coin, or from whom I am most likely to seek sales advice have just told me that they will consider the coin, regardless of whose holder it's in, or what the holder says.  So guess what...I've just paid extra money for a "certificate" of sorts that will mean NOTHING to the future buyer of the coin from me.  Why on EARTH would i want to do that? Perhaps, instead, I'm NOT interested in resale value, and am instead interested only in the coin itself.  in that case, why of COURSE I'm buying the coin and not the holder...I'm purchasing art for the sheer sake of my own enjoyment.  Why, again, would I pay extra money for someone ELSE'S opinion on it? Logic and reason dictate that there is no way around this.  As a common collector, I am paying for someone else's assessment of the quality of my coin.  EITHER the future buyer will be advised and/or certain to IGNORE that assessment, rendering it worthless, or I will be ignoring it..again rendering it worthless. But wait, we're then told...the grades assigned by the RESPECTABLE TPGs are NOT worthless!  They're a baseline! That statement can not possibly be accurate. First, those who make this claim have already told us not to consider the holder when making the purchase.  Are they suggesting, then, that we use something as a "baseline" without considering it?  How is this possible? Second, a baseline represents a measurable and REPEATABLE standard, against which other things are compared.  Slabs clearly don't meet this criteria, as by definition, even the SAME TPG will often assign different grades to the same coin, not to mention the wide disagreement amongst hobbyists as to WHICH TPG is "the best".  How can a standard exist when those who assign it are inconsistent, and those who measure against it can not agree on who's best at assigning it? Finally, it is demonstrably certain that SOME TPGs assign grades at least partly influenced by profit.  TPGs that 'specialize" in assigning high grades, or offer higher grades to higher priced services, etc.  We are left, then, to sort out the "honest" graders from the "dishonest" ones, in an industry where ALL of them are competing against each other for a fixed amount of available business. By which standard, or what evidence, then, are we to determine which TPGs are "most objective"?  Simple...by their reputation alone... Which places us right back at the beginning...we have no recourse bu to trust the subjective opinion of other hobbyists, who SAY that TPG #1 is superior to TPG #2...often while holding, or offering for sale, many coins slabbed by that very TPG. In summary, here's what we are faced with: People who stand to benefit from making such an assertion, assert that one TPG is superior, and that their grades serve as a baseline that can not be established by any scientific, statistical, or logical means...either right before, or right after, telling us to ignore them. Reason is my judge...and reason dictates that unless I desire to trade in subjective interpretations of vague descriptions of loosely defined standards, I will purchase a coin regardless of its holder. Rendering its holder pointless.[/QUOTE]

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