PCGS and NGC MS grading

I understand that a coin can be uncirculated and still have scratches/dings on them but how does PCGS (or other TPGs for that matter) decide how the coin got it's scratches?

The reason I asked is because I was checking the 1964 LMC on PCGS price guide and these coins graded by PCGS and NGC as an MS67 even though if you look closely, it's full of what looks to me as circulated scratches. Then I thought it could be from the owner's own coin purse that did it hence the question. Here are the coins :

PCGS 1964 LMC Glowing Red (Rare certified This Fine) Sold for $7,931.00

NGC 1964 LMC : Sold for $558.00
(zoom in tight and you'll see the scratches on the coat and even a couple of hard hits on Lincoln's cheek)

 

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Others more experienced in grading than I might have better insight, however I do know that there is what is commonly referred to as "bag marks" which are the marks a coin may or may not receive immediately after being minted. Coins such as the LMC are mass produced and come into contact with each other as they gather post-struck. Then loaded into bags and stored before being sent to banking institutions. This is all pre-circulation but can leave marks on the coin.

 

Oh the things I would rather spend $7,931.25 on...

 

Those are planchet marks on Lincoln's shoulder and cheek on the MS64 coin. Planchet marks are the result of the metal from the coin failing to complete fill the void of the dies. Thus as a result you have bits of the original planchet surface peaking thru at the high points.

 

So on the coin's high points. Such things are usually passed off as being on the planchet and not "removed" by the striking process.

 

Wow, so how does one differentiate these marks from normal circulation? How did you two determine they are bag marks or planchet marks? is there a tell ? Thanks for the replies! I'm going to have to research this. I have a 60D, and 64 which has less marks on it and has luster but I don't think I'll get that lucky.

 

Bag marks are (or should) always be considered when grading. This is why low MS coins used to look like total hell; while there was no wear, they were generally well beat (unfortunately this has changed in recent years due to gradeflation). Planchet marks will usually only be present in select areas (if at all) that just happen to be the highest points on a coin (or the lowest on the die).

 

Experience and knowing what you’re doing and talking about. Honestly if you look at a basically top pop coin and and think they got it wrong you need to learn to grade better

 

First off, I never said they got it wrong. I posted here because I wanted to know how they differentiate. Secondly, experience and knowing what you're doing does NOT guarantee that you will always do it right. Even machines make mistakes, humans can have an off day. Lastly, I never claimed I can grade coins.

Thanks for the reply.

 

I forgot to add that based on your comment, grading by the top two grading companies are open to interpretation by the individuals working for them. One person can grade a coin MS64 and another may grade it 68...based on each individual's experience and knowledge. Is that right?

 

Not even close no matter what anyone else types and there will probably be some nonsense that is said in this thread. Spreads like that don’t exist

 

So then there must be some guidelines, not just experience and knowing what you're doing...I'm going by what you said...no one else.

An employee who's been there forever grades a coin an MS67 (having more experience with planchet marks or bag marks because they've seen it all), someone who's been there a month or so may not have the knowledge to identify those types of marks grades it MS63 because of all the "scratches"...that can't happen?

 

No that doesn’t happen. The person grading 67s as a 63 would quickly lose their job and be out of there

 

Yes they probably would, but that means it can happen. Theoritically, that person already graded a 67 coin with a 63. It's called a mistake, an off day....humans.

 

No they’d probably be fired on the spot in all honesty if they’re that bad. And it’d never get past the finalizer. There’s a difference between opinion and being clueless

 

Thank you, so there is some tell for these types of marks. Now I can "grade" my own 64 and see if I should send it. So not to beat a dead horse but the reason I was asking is because my 64 has a scratch on the reverse and looking at the reverse of the PCGS coin, it has multiple scratches (top left of the memorial and between the base of the memorial and one cent) which are on the surface and not the high points.

I've never sent any of my coins for grading because I decided that unless I know I will net at least 300.00 after shipping and grading fees, I'd rather keep it...but my 64 could potentially be a candidate. I have a 60D as well in better condition (Red) than the 64 but I'll probably keep that. The images of my coins are in another thread (LordMarcovan's post, Thank You Lord!) :

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/worth-one-cent.313243/

 

I didn't, I don't know if that person that paid almost $8K for a regular 64 penny for its "luster" would have if they had looked closely at the details. I wouldn't have. I had to zoom all the way in to see the scratches and I was surprised. One of the things that got me going with this hobby is using my magnifying glass app on my phone and seeing the details on the coins after I learned more on what devices/fields/varieties/doubled dies are. When I start looking at coins up close, I can't stop. I go through the same coins over and over in span of days to see the details specially all my pretty shiny coins.

I "graded" my coins at the most basic level, if there's a scratch, it wouldn't get MS grade...and I wouldn't spend money to try and get it slabbed. But now, knowing that TPGs actually grade scratched coins...I might reconsider.

Why? Unfortunately, this is what the norm is in the coin collection world. Coins gets its values based on the opinion of someone working at a well known TPG. And like you said, this is what buyers based most of their purchases, that label. If there's a way I can market my coins and make it sound as good as a TPG label, I'd go that route but no one would buy my coin if I say "54 yr old lincoln penny with glowing red luster, quite rare, with a few scratches." I'd probably get the "you're a scam, that's worth face value" every time lol.

Thank you for the reply, at least someone here shares my thoughts about how those coins were graded.

 

Contact marks or scratches will not knock a coin out of the Mint State category. What makes a coin no longer Mint State is wear. If there is no wear then it's Mint State. Then contact marks, scratches, strike, and luster determine where in the MS 60 to 70 range the coin belongs.