Our beloved coin collecting hobby is becoming discouraging

Other than flooding the market my big beef is the cost of mint products. I have a considerable stock of mint sets, proof sets and other stuff. For a while I sold some on EBay. Lately I can't get my cost back so I quit selling. It is rare to find a product from the mint that will gain value or even hold its value.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Yup. So much of it, it's just pretty scrap metal at this point.

 

A large part of my semi-rare coins came from the swap meets that the young collectors in my community had. Sort of unofficial coin clubs where we bartered for coins. Everyone wanted to help each other find the coins. But, trading was competitive and rated by relative scarcity.

 

I can not state with confidence that I understand your thoughts, because differences in experience, personality, psychological reward/relaxation is different for any person.

I wonder if viewing the hobby from another perspective would be of benefit: removing the overwhelming influence and damage to the hobby via removing the collecting enjoyment from a hobby, to a weighted investment, with all the attendant anxiety/self-doubt that is caused by same.

The subject of fakes, counterfeits, flyspeck analysis of miniscule impact, cleaning, "Coin Doctor" manipulation, as general examples, have always been present, and enjoyment of the hobby was increased and encouraged via self-study and conversation with like minded enthusiasts about same.

The TPG industry was built on the foundation of a supposed better mousetrap-protecting hobbyists from the evildoers, and presenting the hobbyist with (and it was touted and understood as the benefit) protection and expertise as a shield that would deny harm to the hobby.

But (there is always a financial "but"), the presentation to the hobby was that (and remains so) such expertise has a cost, that is necessary to finance the ongoing evildoer prevention war, and the good news is the hobbyist doesn't have to spend their time learning and worrying anymore, because it will be done for you, and YOU can just concentrate on INVESTMENT AND MAKING MONEY FROM YOUR HOBBY.

And here we are. I have never given weight to the gain/loss to me personally for the enjoyment of the hobby/ies. My highpoints of enjoyment are studying and researching and learning. I am not presupposed to paying an entity to do that for me. If I buy a piece already encapsulated, I have researched it, and I either want it or I don't, and if I can afford it I will purchase it and if I can't I won't.

I do not usually use a member as an an example to underline my thoughts, and am doing so in this instance to emphasize the practical aspect of enjoying the hobby and not getting investment ulcers: Paddy54 and paddyman98. I do not know either member personally, and have had less than the fingers on one hand communication with either gentleman. I do pay particular attention to their Posts, because I perceive the enjoyment of being a hobbyist/collector as foremost in importance of enjoyment to them and absent any primary investment goal in their pursuit. It is clear to me that both have self-educated for enjoyment AND SHARE FOR THE SAKE OF LEARNING/TEACHING, not to impress.

I admire that.

What percentage of the items in your collection is impacted by counterfeit items, or coin doctor practitioners? Is it 25%, 50%, 10%? Is it necessary that a hobbyist pay for the assurance at a certain impact level, and what is that level: 5/10/20% of a collection?

Hobbyists have been transformed into investment collectors. is that good or bad? I don't know the answer, because it is an individual decision. I do think the enjoyment of the hobby has been reduced and replaced by financial investment influences via TPGs.

 

You know they say " you at one point become full crcle. " as a kid the basics the" red book " my 1st a 64....probably cost me >$2.00 @ Reads drug store. See image

But I believed in my 50 +/- years I've tried many different ways of display,and coin storage.
And now " other than the half dimes".....is in or heading into albums!
Guess what deja vu I am enjoying my collection more, than items that can only be seen by a bank vault visit....been there done that had two safety depots boxes...full.
I saw the coins the day they went in .....and the day they were sold.
No enjoyment there.... as a old sailor I love the water... speed boats, sail, no matter...but I must admit there are times that the trip is better than the destination, as if you cant enjoy the scenery......however everyone has their own ideas...thats what makes the world spin...
I do now appreciate more than ever going back to a simpler way of life.
And find myself enjoying my collection even more... than years before.

 

back when the alibaba aliexpress (and other) websites were FULL of fake coins that look really good, I stopped collecting too.

I was starting to collect in early US and Colonial coins.
I also recall when young buying "fake coins" from jars in the Boston gift shops before the "COPY" requirement years later came about. So it made me think in that sense too.

So I mostly drifted to buying directly from the mint or specific places like ProvidentMetals, APMEX on buying silver and gold US coins and other coins. Let them inspect the coins themselves.

But my purchasing habits were greatly cut due to health reasons too.
I was spending a lot of time looking at the aliexpress fakes and comparing them to real ones to understand. And reading up on how they made those fakes, etc.

But I never really caught up in all the granular details like Jack Young has.
I'm glad I wasn't a silver Morgan Dollar collector.

 

I honestly never would have thought that so many people in this forum would be interested in what the Mint was putting out as "collectables". I guess they must be doing something right! (It all just looks like state quarters to me)

 

I agree with Mr. Young. Eventually, it all comes down to "knowledge is power." THAT'S A PERSONAL CHOICE. Just because someone is a famous dealer or has collected coins for fifty years in some cases turns out to mean nothing. TPGS do the best they can - a great job most of the time but there are plenty of collector numismatists that know more about what they collect than most professionals! At ANACS in the 70's we dumped a bunch of professionals we formerly used as consultants because knowledgeable collectors had a better accuracy rate concerning authentication. I don't need to say it; but we are all lucky to have collectors like JY (who is famous enough here to be identified by only his initials ) and he is just one of the folks out there.

I believe anyone who puts the time in can avoid reach a higher level of personal comfort when buying a coin. For example, I couldn't identify a fake TPGS slab if you shoved it into my face with a big sticker reading "Fake Slab." So what? The plastic is not important, the coin is.

 

True... But, the perceived value in TPG slabs is that they provide a sense of security for collectors that do not have the expertise to determine authenticity, doctoring, or grade for themselves (they are paying for someone else's expertise).

Of course, putting in the years worth of effort and time required to become an expert yourself would be the best case scenario for avoiding pitfalls. However, most people do not have the time and/or desire to do this. People just want to collect coins and know that they are getting that for which they paid.

Heck, if we were all experts, then there would be no need for TPGs in the first place!

The coin is what you are buying, not the slab. But, it is important that the integrity of TPG slabs are not completely demolished by criminals.

 

I would urge you, @masterswimmer, to not be discouraged. Dismayed at the low morality of many of our fellow humans perhaps. But it was always thus.

As to your qualifications to judge, I would wager that you are better at that than you know and better than a significant proportion of your fellow collectors. I suspect you just feel daunted by the increasing sophistication of the crooks and the degree and sophistication needed of yourself to protect your interests. But you are not alone; there are many resources to help you.

Now to your second point, the "preponderance" of counterfeit coins and slabs. I would suggest that what you see is not a preponderance of these items but rather an increasing degree of reporting on their existence. That's a good thing. The increased reporting may mean there are more of them than in the past and that's probably true to a degree since the internet platforms allow them to ply their trade with some relative anonymity and protection. But the other side of an increased reporting is that more of these items are being discovered and that's a good thing. To make an analogy: Turn on your kitchen light in the middle of the night and see a cockroach or two. Now you know they are there and can take countermeasures. But if you never turn on the kitchen light and never know the bugs are there then that false sense of security is not supported by the facts and they can eat your cupcakes with impunity.

Plus, the internet and the 24/7 news cycle makes everything seem as though it's rampant when most things are not.

Now, I understand I may be leaving the impression that I think counterfeits are not a problem when nothing could be further from the truth. They are a problem and I fully support exposing them and bringing criminals to a harsh justice. I just don't see that the problem justifies giving up on our beloved hobby.

 

Cherd, posted: "True... But, the perceived value in TPG slabs is that they provide a sense of security for collectors that do not have the expertise to determine authenticity, doctoring, or grade for themselves (they are paying for someone else's expertise)."

Very true and you get what you pay for. No But's allowed. You have to make the choice for yourself.

"Of course, putting in the years worth of effort and time required to become an expert yourself would be the best case scenario for avoiding pitfalls. [Absolutely true] However, most people do not have the time and/or desire to do this. People just want to collect coins and know that they are getting that for which they paid."

On several occasions, a wise old man told me: "Whatever you do, do it right." That means each of us has some choices to make. BTW, I never was in favor of a coin grading service although I worked at the first one - INSAB in Washington, DC.

"Heck, if we were all experts, then there would be no need for TPGs in the first place!"

Perhaps, but authentication is a different bird.

"The coin is what you are buying, not the slab. But, it is important that the integrity of TPG slabs are not completely demolished by criminals."

It's not going to happen, especially if the plastic used is made in China.

 

There are no shortcuts in this hobby. The most important skill is developing your eye to be able to spot inauthentic and problem coins. Once you can do this, your gut will immediately tell you a coin is no good, even before you can really examine it and articulate why that is.

To that end, don't start by collecting slabbed coins. Thinking that you know the grade and authenticity because you're buying slabbed coins is a crutch that robs you of being able to authenticate and grade for yourself. Once you don't care whether the coin is slabbed or not when you are buying, then you are ready to buy slabbed coins. Not before.

 

I’ve long suspected that coin collecting is a lot like other things in this life. I’ll not go into other areas.
The recent counterfeits are nothing new. With the Internet the ways which people defraud others is. We need to educate ourselves on how to protect ourselves and each other.
@masterswimmer Please, don’t be discouraged or disappointed in what is happening with coin collecting. It has exploded with the usage of the Internet so do what you can to protect yourself and your investments and enjoy this hobby for the fun that it is.

 

Maybe it would be better business for grading companies to photograph EVERY coin (insert word) > THAT they assign a number and grade to on the slab.
Maybe a small increase in cost would be justified but all fake coins being offered in fake slabs could be looked up for comparison.
Sellers would have to supply their own images and not be allowed to use a PCGS image for example from the PCGS website.

Then it would be up to the buyer to check the registry images and compare the sellers offering.
I quit eBay completely after being there since it first started decades ago just last year. eBay made it difficult for me to close my account(s).
I had to get the BBB involved. Don't miss it a bit but my main concern was identity and/or personal info theft.

Edit: Changed text in first sentence to more clearly make my point.

 

Darwin always wins. When someone is carrying you, your just getting weaker by the minute.

 

How would the Grade be of value? It always was and is opinion. The best of the best (and I subscribe to the opinion) opines that it is impossible to grade a MS coin from a photo. As to other aspects of the identification you mention, should it come to pass, the buyer still has to exercise due diligence and invest some learning time and eye exam $.

I would think you agree that there is more than adequate information available without charge or minor membership charge on the internet and other sources (and books that may or may not be free) that can reduce the risk significantly, if the hobbyist avails themselves and the time necessary to research.

Compared to the 60s thru the 90s, collecting today is the equivalent of obtaining a Doctorate in the Hobby via the free and incredible amount of information available at any time of the day, that reduces risk and provides instant factual answers. Thanks to the reality of all the Buck Rogers (or Buzz Lightyear if you prefer) or Star Trek tools that are reality and common and cheap (and we can't forget the Gore Internet), it is usually laziness that the Doctors rely on.

 

Now that's going way too far! These transgressors must be summarily dealt with, now!

 

Ok, long post, be warned!

I can't speak for PCGS because I don't know either way but if you send a coin to NGC now, they do photograph both sides for their photographic database after encapsulation, even if you don't select to pay for high quality photos. The photos they take are decent enough, when enlarged, to make out specifics to at least verify that it is the coin that went through there. I don't know what year they started doing this but sometime around when they began edgeview slabs because they all seem to be in there. Non-edge view slabs and before are not on there, at least as far as I can tell. Just the number, what it was and grade. (Which is better info than nothing.)

As to the original post, the concerns brought up are valid. It sounds a bit panicked though, possibly unnecessarily. For sure counterfeits, counterfeit slabs are a problem. The larger the purchase, the more research I do. I do use the TPG databases to ensure they match what I'm buying at a minimum. I trust the TPGs to get it right. If they grade a coin that turns out to be a fake they will purchase it back. The vast majority of what's out there is real with fakes sprinkled in. That's the key.

I don't buy raw coins much but still do occasionally in an attempt to beat the system and get a better coin submitted to NGC to add to my registry. I actually just sent some in today after about a two year break. My biggest headache is trying to find an attractive piece I can submit that has not been cleaned or messed with. Which almost every loose coin available has in many series out there. Why a lot of them aren't in slabs and why this seems nearly impossible to do. Even if you have a good hunch you just send it off and cross your fingers.

It may not be much consolation but there are MANY options out there for you to collect that are never going to be capable of being counterfeited. It really depends on what you collect. The details factor plays a role and you often have to pay attention to it anyway to know what you're getting. Look at all the coins out there that experts have figured out known die marriages for. Every coin is like a finger print. There's base details and diagnostics to look for from when it was made.
There's color, toning, spotting, stains, nicks, dings, scuffs, die cracks, letter/number arrangements, that individualize them to identify them in a TPG data base. Or online or in books. I may be wrong but there are many overdates and doubled dies that I really don't think would be attempted to be replicated and if they were, they wouldn't look authentic. I don't think any fakes are replicating die cracks. Most of these will have mulitple diagnostics beyond the die cracks.
The first coin I bought as an adult was a CBH with an overdate in a 2x2. In VG condition with scratches. I think I gave $85 for it. It's still interesting. Could it be a fake? I highly doubt it. I still have it and finally sent it in since I'll probably save it forever anyway and it will be in a spot in my type set. I bring it up because I think this would be an example of one that may never have a fake. I could be wrong, but would it be worth the trouble to try to get right when there's so many easier more valuable options? Could they get a 42/1 Merc right? Would they do an 1882-O/S Morgan? I know they will fake cheap coins too like modern quarters and have seen them. So I suppose anythings possible. The ones with very specific diagnostics will be much harder if not impossible.

Changing gears here to the US Mint.... I've found a way to enjoy what they provide, when they deserve it. In no way is the US Mint a collecting priority to me. There are years I buy nothing from them. There are years I've purchased a lot from them. Some years I might only get one thing that interested me. With so much product, you can't worry about it all. Just skim the product list and see if anything grabs you. Then if it's too expensive just skip it. I think people who were used to the old days feel obligated to try to get everything they offer and there's just no point in that at all.

They offer a huge variety of things and most of it I will never care about. Sometimes they come out with something I do like. Given that these are the places that all of the classics originated from it does have a place and it's a year in your life you are experiencing. Somebody down the line may appreciate what you bought. The mint has over-used this appreciation people have for them but it is what it is. The propensity for their modern proofs to spot has me shying away from them. Reverse proofs while simply less risk of spotting becaue of less mirror finish avaiable to spot, are a little safer, but not immune. But that's a different topic for another day...

I can look at a coin and it makes me remember a period of time in my life around when I purchased it. Some more than others of course. That's kind of neat to me. I like photographing coins as well so it serves as an almost secondary hobby to me.

Theres a ton of risks in life. Do you still drive a car despite the risk of accident? Do people not get married because they might get divorced? Do you not take a job because you might get fired? Do you never buy a coin because it might be a fake? Where does that rank in the aforementioned list?

After careful consideration will you accidentally buy ten fakes in your life? Two? One? If you bought one that was $2k, and couldn't get your money back does that ruin the rest of your collection? Does it ruin your life? It would suck but you could still move on. It seems most people aren't very worried about it. People that know much less than you. If it's really too worrisome, set a new ceiling you're more comfortable with and have less risk.

I go through life with the perspective that it's pretty short. Do what you enjoy and what matters to you. I'm with you on the frustration though. It shouldn't be this hard. Human nature has a way of creeping into everything and ruining it.

 

I hear ya. The only way I could tell if it’s spelled wrong. That’s why we got guys like J. Young

 

the old saying if it looks to good to be true it is comes to mind in the world we live in where anything can be faked

one has to use their brains when shopping either in person or online and a huge dose of common sense helps also

trust me i have passed on many coins and banknotes cause something just didn't look right to my eye

humans will make errors that is just part of the human race nothing we can do about it and TPG's are not immune to this nor is anything else just something we have to accept as a flaw in us

and humans are also greedy another flaw we have to accept fakes coins, and such are done by greedy people living for the $$$

but if one uses brains and common sense then they will be good if not well they will be easy prey and will fall for anything