Our beloved coin collecting hobby is becoming discouraging

I'm seriously becoming very disenfranchised with my beloved hobby of 55 years. I no longer am qualified to reliably purchase raw coins and now slabbed coins. What's left?

The preponderance of CCP fake coins pushed me into buying slabbed coins.
Now the number of counterfeit coins in fake plastic tombs has risen to the point that my knowledge of both counterfeit aspects of the pending purchase makes me concerned for a few reasons.

First, like everyone else, who wants to buy a worthless coin for their hard earned buck?

Second, now that our kids are grown and we're empty nesters, we have a bit more discretionary income. My coin purchases have moved up quite a few notches. Therefore the amount of my pending losses on coins that turn out to be counterfeit is much more financially damaging.

Third, the only reliable option remaining, that I'm aware of, is buying moderns from the Mint. That ship sailed years ago when the Mints offerings became ridiculously priced, coupled with them being to numerous to continue. Not to mention probably 95% of their offerings don't retain value above their issue price.

There's a number of members I'd love to engage in this discussion. I welcome everyone to join in.

Thoughts? @Jack D. Young , @Insider , @Inspector43 , @Collecting Nut

 

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nope

being what i call a common everyday collector tends to keep it simple i have a budget and stick to it but i have other ways to get coins for my collection finding them in the wild or have them given to me as a gift and also i sell coins which also keeps one on their toes as someone may have something you want

plus a wide range of collecting ideas is also helpful as if you are focused on one thing your mind will get bored and you will fade off like so many have

but a wide range of collecting you never know what will pop up

 

Thanks for your reply Silverpop. I don't think my little rant was very clear. Let me expand on it a bit.

Recent postings about tooling on Morgan silver dollars, TPG slabs being counterfeited, needless to say, the counterfeiting of coins themselves, mistakes made by the experts at the TPG companies not picking up some of the fakes, the NGC scandal of opening legitimate slabs and replacing the graded coin with a lower grade coin and then resealing the slab, and many more nefarious intentioned heathens trying to scam us has made the act of purchasing a legitimate coin a scary process.

I can't possibly be the only one who feels angst when perusing a coin in a LCS, eBay, auction houses, private sale, online, or anywhere. The minute detail of the tooling of coins, or miniscule repair or intentional moving of metal, is daunting. Just looking at the threads posted by @Jack D. Young . I can't see some of the markers on fakes even when pointed out. The same goes for the quiz threads posted by @Insider . Yes, some things become noticeable after they're identified and called out by the experts. Other things, no way do I see what they're talking about.

How can those of us who know a good deal about coins in general and a bit more about certain coins we specialize in, be expected to make the right decision on choosing a legitimate coin when the potential for these microscopic markers can be anywhere on the coin? I mean really, the three tiny tool marks on the Morgan hair right above the ear? There's no way I'd have identified that tooling on my own.

My point is, I've been made to feel completely inadequate in buying coins. The financial fear factor looms large to me. I know there are quite a few collectors here who scoff at spending a couple of grand on a coin. Not me. That is a price range that a fake/counterfeit coin mistake would have a lasting negative effect on me.

Am I alone here?

 

Seems to me that buying on eBay is relatively safe, given that you can examine any coin upon receipt and get your money back if it's been misrepresented. I've never had trouble doing that.

If buying big-buck items, simply favor established vendors.

Moreover, you can always post your purchases here for additional opinions, some of which may be authoritative!

 

I've been an active collector since the early 70's. Attending shows, joining clubs, auctions, you name it. If a coin was around I'd sniff it out and make a deal. When the scammers really started hitting ebay a while back it soured me on making any more purchases. I put everything in storage and turned my attention elsewhere. Lately a rekindled interest brought me back. After digging out my collection I found a few fakes that I had purchased many years ago not knowing any better.

Now I've immersed myself in the study of counterfeits and counterfeit detection. My tools have also been upgraded from the simple loupe, 'ping' test and common coin reference books to include better, more detailed references, digital imaging and diagnostic testing (metal analytics, specific gravity, etc.) Wonderful forums like this are a treasure trove of knowledge also.

I figure it's a small price to pay to invest in those types of things considering the potential for greater loss if I don't. Of course this applies to raw coins. I don't have any control over what the TPG service do (or miss) except give those coins as much scrutiny as I can if I'm really interested. Yes, it's a hassle going through a lot of extra steps nowadays but I'd rather do that than let the scammers ruin the hobby I love.

 

After 60 years collecting I still buy more raw than slab coins,and have set free a few hunderd coins from slabs. After many years of coin clubs, self education,the love of researching . I personally never liked slabed coins....or stickers...to begin with.
I am not afraid to buy any raw coin as I trust myself ,my eye, my knowledge, as well friends,in the hobby to advoid any issues.
* I know and the wife will tell you ...any given day...I am texted by a member, friend,dealer...over a coin or question regarding a coin.
When you spend 50 + years doing anything the odds are against you. I spent 39 years in retail food...the odds of being robbed better than buying a raw coin....that's counterfeit. And at gun point that happen twice...not to mention the daily shoplifters!

And will add anyone...anyone...in this hobby,or business has not made a mistake on coin, and denying it..... your nose is now over 2 foot long. Sorry again time and lifes experience will provide the evidence

Again no matter the coin or series I take no issues in making a sound judgement to buy or pass. Esspecially these days with all you need to know is yours for the taking....all one need do is research.

 

It was great planning on our part--let someone else do the grunt work of authenticating and grading while we sally out on the so called "thrill of the hunt."

Now we still get to authenticate something even as we pay for slabs.

 

.

 

The old adage of buy the coin not the slab is still relevant and important in the current climate, especially with the counterfeit holders...

Examining the coin images regardless of the holder is key, with attribution of the subject example the 1st step (I sound like a broken record...); if you can't attribute it, there most likely is a problem! In the case of the fake 1881$-CC's in fake holders the reverse doesn't match any genuine VAM. And the TPG's are starting to catch up and either inactivate the cert or noting possible counterfeits with that cert #.


The NGC slab issue is one of others I am aware of where an individual substitutes a lower grade example for the genuine one; again your knowledge of grading and a simple on-line cert lookup can smoke these out!

And the really deceptive ones in genuine holders? There are many articles written and published on line (I have 49 now on the counterfeit subject on Coin Week) and are available to help; I do NOT recommend cracking coins out of genuine slabs myself now, as the TPG authenticity guarantee may be the only saving grace for a bad one...

Well, I'm rambling now, but the Hobby will remain strong in spite of the apparent pitfalls as long as collectors are still willing to do their homework and stay vigilant in my opinion; we ARE better and more knowledgeable than the counterfeiters!

 

And fresh from the Bay- matches the diagnostics of the known bad ones and NOT a genuine one!



https://www.ebay.com/itm/364162766294?hash=item54c9cad5d6:g:G2MAAOSw9M5j6qEL

 

Same here with Ebay. I've been buying and selling on Ebay and have never had a problem.
Been doing this since Ebay first started.
I realize that the fees are getting out of hand and some will definitely disagree with me but you're always protected!!

 

I don't purchase very many or, depending on your definition, any high-ticket items. I've never bought a coin that's run me over a hundred USD. That said, I only passively collect modern coins; ancient coins really are what I collect now. Modern coins are hard to detect when it comes to fakes, which is part of the reason I really stopped. Ancient coin fakes are out there as well, I've seen a couple, but I feel pretty safe sticking to trusted dealers. I would say if you have a dealer(s) that you can trust, that makes all the difference. The coins I collect aren't frequently counterfeited which also helps, who's going to fake a Hadrian when they can fake a Caligula.
All that said, I agree with you. If I want to purchase a modern coin (say, on eBay) it's difficult for my undiscerning eye to catch a fake. While it makes it harder to make that initial purchase, out of necessity it drives me to do more research prior to buying. I did a great deal of research before jumping into Roman numismatics, reading several books and articles on the subject. Many were even available in the public domain! I have had to research before I buy, but that makes the process all the more rewarding. Maybe the only thing these counterfeiters are doing is making smarter collectors.

 

Join the increasing crowd!

Reliable sources for Credible Objective reporting seem to be diminishing, but I probably could have said that in 1977 when the Objective A.N.A. grading standard was published!

JMHO

 

I’ll get back to you on this @masterswimmer

 

Coin collecting gets screwed up for the same reason that everything good in the world gets screwed up to some extent, because some percentage of humans really suck! I resist cynicism to the extent possible, but the depressing fact of the matter is that it is true

I collect ancients, and my only real source for coins are auctions put on by companies that guarantee authenticity. This has it's downsides, but the one upside is that I shouldn't ever get burned if a fake is discovered in my collection.

Only buying slabbed coins is a good start. I suppose that checking the TPG databases before purchase and ensuring that the coin in the slab is the one pictured is another good practice.

Lastly, always implement the old "If its too good to be true" rule, that'll eliminate at least some of the problems.

 

@masterswimmer Thank you for opening this topic for discussion. You say that you are "...seriously becoming very disenfranchised..." I am there already. I made my first purchase directly from the US Mint in 1959. Things went well until the market got flooded with what I call ballast. In the 20th Century you could collect one each of the coins intended for circulation for under $3 a year. Naturally there was a premium for mint sets and proof sets. I won't get too detailed here, but so many new products were added. It not only became difficult and expensive to acquire the coins but you needed a spreadsheet to track release dates and all the variations being offered.

This is an opinion thread and my opinion is that marketing on late night TV, Social Media and the US Mint has distorted the reality of the product. In 1999 the State Quarter Program hit the hobby hard. It was successful, but the majority of general coin collectors were happy to see it coming to an end. Well, the US Mint and associated markets couldn't stand that. So, the ATB series came out. That ended my contributions to the US Mint. Now the American Women series jumps in.

Look at the Red Book or any other listing of US coins. Look at not only the subject quarters but all the variations. In order to have a complete set you need at least 25 of each. That means 125 quarters per year since 1999. Add to those figures the Silver and Reverse Proof coins. I am only talking about coins intended for circulation and the variations thereof. Consider ASE and Modern Commemoratives and there is a serious increase in options and cost. The mint has gone the way of the USPS and I have quit them too. For effect I have included a chart of USPS stamp issues since 1847. The first two lines cover about 50 years each. The others are by decade. Someone should do this with US Coins intended for circulation.

USPS Stamp Issues

1847 to 1899 293
1900 to 1949 693
1950 to 1959 152
1960 to 1969 247
1970 to 1979 408
1980 to 1989 643
1990 to 1999 931
2000 to 2009 1065

Collecting is too expensive and no fun anymore.

I hope this reply is not too winded.

 

Brother, you said a mouthful. I was the happiest coin collector on the planet when I was buying coins with my school lunch money. No worries about slabs, counterfeits, registry sets, etc. etc..... If I were a young fellow today interested in the history that our coins speak to... I would run as fast as I could run. The crooks of the world have sullied a fabulous hobby to the point that I fear coin collecting will become as remote as stamp collecting. I too feel your fears, brother.

 

I agree completely. When I started collecting (that was four years ago already) I saved up my allowance to buy circulation rolls and pull wheat cents and buffalo nickels out. Simpler times; I then got a job and my horizons broadened dramatically, I saw all the different US coin types and the rare varieties. It got to be a bit much for me, so I switched to ancients. That wasn't the only factor, of course, the overinflated prices were no help. Now that I have "Adult Money" I can afford coins that are comfortable enough to fit within my budget and still save up for college. When I was 14/15 I would ride my bike to the antique shop near the edge of town with a ten or a twenty and buy a couple wheat cents, silver halves, or anything that caught my eye really. It was all common stuff, but I was happy to have them. I didn't worry about fakes or getting it attributed naturally. I am so happy to have found a collecting niche for me, but sometimes I wish I could go back to those simpler days.

 

Thanks @Randy Abercrombie I am encouraging my grandchildren to collect but I fear it is vain. I don't think any of them will be able to afford it. I planned to have children and grandchildren so I hoarded a lot of coins. These will give them a start in a hobby that has very little hope of survival, at least in the general population.

 

I do agree 100% Randy you and I are on the same track. And rightfully so as our age puts us at a place on a time line no one will else will know the joy!
Im taking like you 1950-to mid 1960's.
Coin club meetings, going though you News paper collection bag ....swapping out your $2.00 @ week pay for real 90% silver and buffalo nickels....red seal 2's & $5. Bills as well silver cert
Oh Lord " life was a tire swing" and a kid had the pleasure to interact with their elders and talk coins. For a few short hours a month all your troubles were trying to made a trade between you and a YN club member.
Oing back and forth grading and talking..... the best part there wasnt any cel phones....so
We actually sat face to face...and talked! Yup imagine that?