Featured OTD: Ptolemy IV outclasses Antiochos III The Great at Raphia 217 BCE & Perseus demise Pydna168 BCE

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Ryro, Jun 22, 2021.

  1. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    Sometimes losers win and winners lose.
    Case in point, both the first of the awful Ptolemies beats up a pretty good descendant of Seleukos and then the Romans put and end to Antigonid, as well as Macedonian, rule in Macedon on the same day that you and I are living, breathing, drinking and farting in some 2238 and 2189 years later!

    This "father loving" turd:
    Ptolemy IV Philopator
    222-205/4 BCE
    Æ (11.5mm, 1.39 g, 12h). Uncertain mint on Cyprus. Diademed head of female (Aphrodite/Arsinoe III or Cleopatra VII?) right / Filleted cornucopia. Svoronos 1161; SNG Copenhagen 649. VF

    Beats this Rockstar:
    Antiochos III Megas
    Seleukid Kingdom. Uncertain (military) mint 60. 223-187 BC. Struck 202-187 BC Bronze Æ 17mm., 4,60g. Macedonian shield with gorgoneion in central boss / ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ΑNΤΙΟΧΟΥ, elephant walking right, anchor above, monogram of ΠΑ below. very fine SC 1089.3a; HGC 9, 490
    Former: Savoca

    Here and in this fashion:

    And then 49 years later this great great grandson of Antigonus Monophthalmus:
    ThessalianLeague, Thessaly,Greece, c. 170 B.C. GB84862. Bronze chalkous, Warren, "Two Notes," NC 1961, pl. I, 11; BCD Thessaly II 24.2; HGC 4 236; Rogers 4 var., VF, dark green patina, cleaning scratches, earthen deposits, Demetrias(?) mint, weight 2.535g, maximum diameter 14.7mm, c. 170 B.C.; obverse Macedonian shield with star in central boss; reverse kestrosphendone (dart sling) with dart inside, ΘEΣΣA/ΛΩN divided in two lines, the first above, ending below; ex John Jencek;
    The object on the reverse was long considered somewhat mysterious. Roger identified it as a lyre. Robinson suggested a diadem or more probably a sling. Warren argued it is a stylized depiction of a dart sling, or Kestrosphendone, a weapon first introduced during the Third Macedonian War between Rome and Perseus of Macedon. Warren suggests this type was struck at Demetrias, under orders from Perseus, to commemorate the success of the weapon.

    At this abominable site:
    losses it all to a bunch of farmers with no style, art, religion nor sense of humor of their own. Who then split Macedon into 4 Meris... that's right, here's my new fourth Meris (I thought about naming the thread "Meris Buehler's day off"):
    MACEDON (Roman Protectorate), Republican period. Fourth Meris. Circa 167-149 BC. Æ (25mm, 10.18 g, 12h). Heraclea Lynci mint. Head of Zeus right, wearing laurel wreath / Club; monogram and MAKΔONΩN above, TETAPTHΣ and monogram below; all within oak wreath; thunderbolt to left. MacKay pl. III, 12; Touratsoglou pl. VII, 26; AMNG III/1, 188; SNG Copenhagen 1316; Weber 3709. VF, brown patina. Extremely rare.
    "After the defeat of Perseus at the battle of Pydna in 168 BC, the Romans divided Macedonia into four separate autonomous administrative regions (merides). The first region (ΠPΩTEΣ) lay east of the Strymon with its capital at Amphipolis, the second (ΔEYTEPAΣ) between the Strymon and Axios with its capital at Thessalonica, the third between the Axios and Peneos with its capital at Pella, and the fourth (TETAPTHΣ) included most of Upper Macedonia with its capital at Heraclea Lynci. These four regions only lasted until 148 BC when the country was finally united to constitute a Roman Province and proceeded to issue coins under the authority of its legatus pro praetore.
    Livy informs us that initially all commerce between the regions, exploitation of the silver and gold mines and the importation of salt were forbidden. Almost all the coinage of this period is struck in the name of the first region and runs parallel to the mass coinages of Thasos and Maroneia from about 158 BC. The first region was the most prolific in its coin issues, striking huge issues of tetradrachms and bronze. The second region had only two issues of tetradrachms and the fourth had only two issues of bronzes. Coins from these two regions are very rare today. No coinage is known from the third region."

    Please post any coins relevant:)
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
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  3. Mammothtooth

    Mammothtooth Stand up Philosopher, Vodka Taster

    I have no relevant coins but love the write up.
    Ryro likes this.
  4. Andres2

    Andres2 Well-Known Member

    nice write up Ryro, here are some relevant coins:

    Ptolemy IV (2).jpg P1200474 (2).JPG P1170139best.jpg
    Curtisimo, Alegandron, Pavlos and 7 others like this.
  5. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    Thanks so much for sharing Andres! I've long been envious of your Philip V tet. Thing of beauty!!!
    Reminds me of my old Seleucid from the same time period under Antiochos III The great:
    MACEDONIAN KINGDOM. Alexander III the Great (336-323 BC). AR tetradrachm (15.98 gm). About VF, countermark, graffito. Late posthumous issue of Perga, dated CY 27 (195/4 BC). Heracles wearing lion-skin, AΛEΞANΔPOY, Zeus seated left on backless throne, right leg drawn back, feet on ground line, eagle in right hand, scepter in left; KI in left field, Seleucid anchor countermark in rectangle in outer right field. Price 2941.
    Curtisimo, Pavlos, Spaniard and 4 others like this.
  6. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Supporter! Supporter

    My understanding of the Battle of Raphia 22 June 217 BC is just after Antiochos III routed the Ptolemaic left wing Arsinoe III the wife of Ptolemy IV promised two of these to each man in the army should they persevere
    Av Mnaieon of Ptolemy IV 219-217 BC Obv Bust of Ptolemy III with the attributes of Zeus,(aegis) Poseidon (Trident) and Helios (Radiate crown) right. Rv, Radiate filleted diadem resting on cornucopia. 27.82 grams 31 mm Photo by W. Hansen Sv1117-2ptiv.jpg Talk about incentive. Obviously among motivational speakers even after all these years she would still be the "gold standard". However on that day Antiochos did not help his cause all that much. He lost control of his cavalry and effectively took himself out of command of his army. The Ptolemaic right flank defeated the Seleukid left and the incentivized Ptolemaic center defeated the Seleukid center.
  7. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    That is an amazing story and even more amazing coin! At 27.82 grams 31 mm it must be near thick as a brick.
    On a side note it is interesting to see Ptolemy III's portrait as most of his coins are of his dad, grandpa or ATG. He has the same funny chin as them, but appears to be a bit pudgy.
    Here is my coin of 3 with an ATG (who also looks a bit chubby) portrait:
    Ptolemy III Euergetes
    AE Obol. Alexandria Mint 246-222 BCE. Obverse: Deified head of Alexander the Great right, wearing elephant skin. Reverse: Eagle standing left on thunderbolt, head right, cornucopia over shoulder; E between legs. References: Svoronos 976; SNG Copenhagen 232. Size: 24mm, 10.36g. Numismatic Notes: Good VF grade and done in choice style!
    Curtisimo, Pavlos, Spaniard and 5 others like this.
  8. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    Fun writeup! And congrats on scoring that rare Fourth Meris bronze... it's a very nice example.

    I'll share a coin that features Perseus of Macedon, courtesy of that

    RR - L Aemilius Lepidus Paullus Perseus 3795.jpg
    AR Denarius. 3.96g, 18.9mm. Rome mint, 62 BC. L. Aemilius Lepidus Paullus, moneyer. Crawford 415/1. O: PAVLLS (sic) LEPIDVS CONCORDIA, diademed and veiled bust of Concordia right. R: TER / PAVLLVS, Trophy; to right, L. Aemilius Paullus Macedonicus in toga standing left; to left, three captives (King Perseus of Macedon and his two sons).
    Notes: The moneyer is L. Aemilius Lepidus Paullus, consul of 50 BC, who claimed descent from L. Aemilius Paullus, the famed Roman general who conquered Macedonia, and was accorded three triumphs, the most celebrated of which is referenced by the reverse of this issue.
    Curtisimo, Pavlos, Spaniard and 4 others like this.
  9. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    Hehe. Maybe just a smidge of hyperbole there pointing out just how much Rome lifted from the Greeks:happy:
    Wonderful coin!:singing: I don't recall seeing one, at least knowing it's supposed to be PERSEUS!
    ... what is Perseus holding behind his back? Is that one of the harpas that he's so famous for? :nailbiting: Paulus, look out!!!
  10. Pavlos

    Pavlos You pick out the big men. I'll make them brave!

    Fun write up @Ryro! That fourth merris coin is neat, very rare.
    Antiochos III indeed good outclassed by Ptolemy IV, but he is still my 2nd favorite Megas! :cool:
    But... Let's not forget Antiochos IV afterwards outclassed the Ptolemies, if Rome wouldn't have interrupted :mad:.

    King Antiochus IV of Syria came forward, and went to meet Gaius Popillius Laenas.

    “‘Rome has no business in Egypt!’ the King said, frowning awfully and direfully.

    “‘Syria has no business in Egypt either,’ said Gaius Popillius Laenas, smiling sweetly and serenely.

    “‘Go back to Rome,’ said the King.

    “‘Go back to Syria,’ said Gaius Popillius Laenas.

    “But neither of them moved a single inch.

    “‘You are offending the Senate and People of Rome,' said Gaius Popillius Laenas after a while of staring into the King’s fierce face. ‘I have been ordered to make you return to Syria.’

    “The King laughed and laughed and laughed. ‘And how are you going to make me go home?’ he asked. ‘Where is your army?’

    “‘I have no need of an army, King Antiochus IV,’ said Gaius Popillius Laenas. ‘Everything that Rome is, has been, and will be, is standing before you here and now. I am Rome, no less than Rome’s largest army. And in the name of Rome, I say to you a further time, go home!’

    “‘No,’ said King Antiochus IV.

    “So Gaius Popillius Laenas stepped forward, and moving sedately, he used the end of his staff to trace a circle in the dust all the way around the person of King Antiochus IV, who found himself standing inside Gaius Popillius Laenas’s circle.

    “‘Before you step out of this circle, King Antiochus IV, I advise you to think again,’ said Gaius Popillius Laenas. ‘And when you do step out of it - why, be facing east, and go home to Syria.’

    “The King said nothing. The King did not stir. Gaius Popillius Laenas said nothing. Gaius Popillius Laenas did not stir. Since Gaius Popillius Laenas was a Roman and did not need to hide his face, his sweet and serene countenance was on full display. But King Antiochus IV hid his face behind a curled and wired wigbeard, and even then could not conceal its thunder. Time went on. And then, still inside the circle, the mighty King of Syria turned on his heel to face east, and stepped out of the circle in an easterly direction, and marched back to Syria with all his soldiers.”

    I guess these "bunch of farmers with no style, art, religion" really do not have a sense of humor of their own.

    Seleukid Kingdom. Antiochos III Megas (223 - 187 B.C.). AR Tetradrachm. Antioch mint. Series 3, circa 204–197 B.C.
    Diademed head of Antiochos III to right.
    Reverse: ΒΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ ANTIOXOY. Apollo seated left on omphalos, holding arrow in his right hand and resting his left on grounded bow; to outer left, bow in bowcase.
    Reference: SC 1044.5a; Le Rider series 3-4, obv. A12; BMC 27; HGC 9, 447u.
    Curtisimo, zumbly, Bing and 3 others like this.
  11. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana Supporter

    It's not clearly shown on most dies, but those would be golden chains for the royal prisoner. I'm pretty sure Perseus spent the rest of his life in a Roman slammer.
    Ryro likes this.
  12. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter


    POCKET CHANGE, Just after their leisurely stroll in PYDNA PARK:

    Macedon as Roman Province,
    District of Bottiaia.

    Gaius Publius Tamios, Quaestor
    AE20, 7.6g, 12h;
    Macedonian mint, c. 168-166 BCE. Just after their leisurely stroll in PYDNA PARK
    Obv: Helmeted head of Athena right.
    Rev: ΓΑΙΟΥ / ΤΑΜΙΟΥ; Cow standing right; monogram beneath
    Ex: @John Anthony
  13. Blake Davis

    Blake Davis Well-Known Member

    Fascinating post: two questions: where did the information come from on the coinage of the four regions and second - do you know of any sites or books that have photographs of coins from the regions where coinage is very rare?
    Ryro likes this.
  14. Ryro

    Ryro The last of the Diadochi Supporter

    Thanks for reading!
    There are many places to read up on Rome's takeover of Macedon. A watershed moment in history for many reasons.
    In regards to the 4 regions and their coinage, Martin Price's book, Coins of the Macedonians, is a wonderful, though short, read on this very subject:
    20210710_152131.jpg 20210710_152221~2.jpg 20210710_152231~2.jpg 20210710_152618.jpg

    If you wish to see more examples AC search, FORVM and Wild Winds all have some mouth watering morsels.
    Hey! I just noticed you and I both joined CT in December of 2017!:woot:
    Blake Davis, Andres2 and Curtisimo like this.
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