Omega Counterfeit $10 Indian ?

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Gallienus, Nov 18, 2019.

  1. Gallienus

    Gallienus Well-Known Member

    Around 1982 I bought a US 1909-P $10 Indian at a semi-big coin show in New Jersey. About 10 years later I was buying type coins for my US collection and I showed the coin to a major dealer: Clark A. Samuelson of US Coins (Houston, TX). I bought quite a few coins from Clark and he told me that my $10 Indian was definitely an Omega counterfeit. Clark passed away since then and I don't have the 1981 dealer contact. I've looked at some posts others have made about counterfeit $10 golds and decided that if mine is counterfeit it's a pretty good one.

    It has some characteristics of a good coin. It has 46 stars on the edge (correct for the 1907-1911 issues), the edge design was applied with 3 partitions (also correct) breaking at 6:00, 10:00, 2:00 (measured from the reverse), or 12:00, 4:00, 8:00 (obv). The weight according to a very good analytical balance (ohaus) was 16.754g although I think the balance is a little hi & needs calibration. The correct weight is 16.718g although .001 gram accuracy is difficult to get even with the wind shield.

    Some photographs follow. I took at least 15 photos with a Sony NEX6, set to manual focus (auto-focus is hopeless) to get these two but I can do better as I also have a photo camera mount. These were done by hand.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    A diagnostic of the Omega counterfeits is an Omega symbol in one of the letters of "Liberty" often the "R". This coin has something there but even looking at it with a German 9X hastings triplet I can't pick out any Omega symbol. Also a few slabbed 1909 Indian in 63 or 64 grades I looked at from HA had "not a completely clear field" inside the R of Liberty: similar to mine.

    So is this an Omega counterfeit? Is it a regular counterfeit? Is it genuine? In answer to the obvious, yes I do have "a few" $10 golds unslabbed, some bought from Stack's auctions back in the 80's before anyone heard of slabbing coins. Others were bought at coin shops in the NE back in the days. I've only submitted two coins to the grading services. One was a suspected counterfeit in a PF-64 holder which was confirmed & I got a refund. The other piece was a Morgan $ which came back as a 64 but it was not the coin we sent in. If interested I can try to get better photos of this 1909 Indian $10.
     
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  3. jwitten

    jwitten Well-Known Member

    I have a 1907 $20 High Relief Omega. One of my favorite coins in my collection! Bought it and slabbed it knowing it was an omega. Insider works at ICG, and they can determine if it is real, fake, or an omega fake for not much money. Good luck!
    thumbnail_FullSizeRender.jpg Omega3.jpg
     
  4. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    Actually I have to agree with the previous poster. If it was my coin, I’d send it to ICG in a heartbeat, noting “Omega” in the comments field. ICG will slab it as counterfeit, if it turns out to be one, while the other services would simply return it. I believe common date OMEGA counterfeits are worth more than the real deal.

    I think he may need to see closeups and/or the coin in hand, but we can give it a try and ask :)

    @Insider is this an Omega?
     
    GeorgeM, Paul M. and Gallienus like this.
  5. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    Wish I had one, those are really cool and usually sell for big money! :D
     
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  6. Gallienus

    Gallienus Well-Known Member

    The advice given me in 1992 was to take it to a small town coin store and dump it. Back then gold was probably around $800/ oz. Glad I didn't do that. Taking good coin photos is actually quite difficult but I can try with my photo setup next. I didn't know about that ICG submission. The ANA article mentions that 1910 Indian $10's were counterfeited by Omega but nothing about a 1909.

    Around that time I bought a generic 1932 Indian $10 in a 64 slab from Clark but later sold it as it was a "blah coin". A 1909 has more personality (IMO).
     
    Paul M. likes this.
  7. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    I'm not familiar with the market price for these, but I know I'd pay more for an Omega fake than the real deal.
     
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  8. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Please don't feed the counterfeiter beast. If you want a high relief gold coin, buy the one the U.S. issued a decade ago. The prices have come down a lot on this one.

    2009 U High RE O.jpg 2009 U High RE R.jpg
     
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  9. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    Omega counterfeits are a perfectly valid numismatic item. Just because you don't like them does not make them uncollectible or undesirable.
     
    jwitten likes this.
  10. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    You and I shall agree to disagree. You don't reward 20th century counterfeiters.

    Maybe some day you will be in the market for some Chinese fakes. They are a part of history too, but the people who make and market them should burn in hell.
     
  11. Paul M.

    Paul M. Well-Known Member

    Indeed we shall disagree, but you don't get to tell anyone what to like. Maybe you should just ignore posts like this, or try posting on a different forum.

    BTW, I have already bought a couple of Chinese counterfeits, on purpose, to show people how bad they are.
     
  12. Michael K

    Michael K Well-Known Member

    I'm assuming the Omega's used gold?
    So if it's not a rare date in question, there's always melt value.
    And it seems like the Omega has some infamy similar to the Henning.
    As long as the slab says counterfeit, as long as both the buyer and
    seller are aware it is an Omega fake, there's really no issue here.

    The Chinese counterfeits are modern pot metal coins with the intent to deceive. Yes originally that was the Omega motive as well, but if collectors have a demand for something you can't say anything if it is legal to buy and sell counterfeits. As a specialty item, with full disclosure.

    The 1959-D mule cent has been auctioned for tens of thousands of
    dollars before. I doubt anyone thinks that it's a mint issue.
    Is this also feeding the counterfeit beast?
     
  13. fretboard

    fretboard Defender of Old Coinage!

    I agree to disagree with you as well. :D The Omega gold coins are very pricey, normally I don't support counterfeiters either but Omega gold coins are the holy grail. Besides, it has a mint mark, so in my mind it's a special coin! ;) I wouldn't mind having one if I could get one at a very cheap price but that's just a daydream for me. :D

    https://www.money.org/collector/user_8029/blog/the-omega-man-counterfeiter
     
    GeorgeM likes this.
  14. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Special coin? :vomit:

    It’s not a coin; it’s a counterfeit.

    I am very passionate about the counterfeit problem, and I believe that every collector should be on-board to combat it. These Omega counterfeits have been around for a long time. The dealers who had them were very hush-hush about offering them. It's like the street vender who has jewelry hidden in his coat and five watches on his arm, all of it "hot." Now it seems that these bogus pieces are openly accepted, and I find that disturbing.

    They are still illegal so far as I know. It's only a matter of the government deciding to crack down on them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
  15. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Yes, it is feeding the counterfeit beast. Someone has been able to profit from the sale of a counterfeit, and that encourages more of them on another level. In the past, the counterfeit was made to fool people into thinking it is genuine. Now the fairly recent counterfeit is a "collectable." I find that disturbing.

    How about the fake the 1969 doubled die cent? I am not talking about the genuine 1969-S doubled die cent. This piece was made by a couple of crooks from spark erosion dies before the real coin was discovered. Is that now collectable too?
     
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  16. Conder101

    Conder101 Numismatist

    How do you feel about the collecting of contemporary counterfeit bust half dollars?
     
  17. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    The early 1970s are increasingly far in the past. Is there any evidence that the Omega counterfeiter is still active (or even alive), or that he gets any money when these pieces change hands?
     
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  18. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    I can see both sides... John is right, we shouldn’t praise them, however I wouldn’t mind adding one to my (very small) black cabinet :)
     
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  19. Stevearino

    Stevearino Supporter! Supporter

    @micbraun +1. That's why I'm watching this thread and giving "Likes" to posters with opposing opinions. It's really a thorny ethical issue, IMHO. When I took an ethics class in seminary, I realized that the black & white world I had lived in for almost 30 years had a lot of gray in it.

    I'm also glad the posters have been respectful in this thread. It is important to me WHY people think the way they do, not just the RESULT of their thinking. When the insults and crap start flying, it's hard to get beyond that.

    Steve
     
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  20. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    There is not much grey when it comes to recently produced counterfeits. It's all black. It's okay to collect a Machin's Mills half penny from the 1700s, but when you start dredging up the garbage from less than century ago that was produced to defraud collectors and start paying high prices for it, you are seriously damaging the hobby.
     
    GoldFinger1969 likes this.
  21. micbraun

    micbraun coindiccted

    So it’s unethical to buy one now, but in 50 years it would be ok? I think as long as buyer and seller are both aware of what they have, there’s no issue.
     
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