Ocho Reales del Mar?

Discussion in 'World Coins' started by Lucky Cuss, Jan 9, 2014.

  1. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    Here's a piece I picked up a few weeks back (from a reputable dealer). It was presented as being likely a shipwreck salvage coin, and it certainly has that feel and look to it, particularly considering the slightly eroded area at the rim just above the bust's forehead.

    My thought is that, although there was no certification of any sort accompanying it, this 8 Reales most probably came from the El Cazador, the coins from which reportedly were in the main dated 1783 just as this one is.

    So here're my questions on this topic:

    1) The cargo of the El Cazador supposedly consisted of about 450,000 coins. Does anybody know what the final tally was for those recovered? Also, what was the census as to dates and denominations?

    2) It's my understanding that early on coins were sold directly with some sort of certificate of authenticity, and then the Franklin Mint got involved. I've seen examples recently certifed by NGC as being genuinely from the El Cazador, but I don't know what the source of those has been and what NGC accepted as constituting indisputable provenance. Can someone shed some additional light on the various stages of the marketing of these?
     

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  3. doug444

    doug444 STAMPS and POSTCARDS too!

    I can't answer any of your questions, but I have just now read articles about Charles III, El Cazador, the dissolution of the Franklin Mint, etc., etc., and found it all extremely interesting; thanks for bringing up the subject. I was involved with the S. S. Central America's salvage program's very early stages, researching San Francisco mint records for Tommy Thompson, who was one of my real estate customers. I then moved out of Columbus and had no further contact with treasure-hunting.
     
  4. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    I've read Ship of Gold in the Deep Blue Sea (about the Cental America) and just started on Lost Gold of the Republic. Unfortunately, no such book exists (so far as I can find) regarding the discovery and salvage of the El Cazador, which is why I'm asking these questions.

    My impression is that from the Atocha onward, the biggest impediment to recovering shipwreck treasure has been not weather, depth, or overlying sediment, but lawyers.
     
  5. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    Still waiting for someone who has knowledge of the El Cazador salvage operation to share some insights....

    Meanwhile, I have a couple additional questions, more in a general nature regarding these finds. What effect does, say, hundreds or even thousands of 1783 8 reales from the El Cazador or 1861-O halves from the Republic suddenly coming onto the market have on the values of existing examples of those issues, if any? And what sort of premium in the long term can you expect to see placed on authenticated shipwreck coins, again if any?

    A final remark - it's interesting that both the El Cazador and the Republic had been tasked with transporting specie to a financially desperate New Orleans, albeit under very different circumstances....
     
  6. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    Well, it appears that this thread may be a nonstarter insofar as eliciting any new information, but in the meantime, I'll post some additional pertinent material in case this discussion gets resurrected in the future.

    I had found one decent recounting of the discovery and salvage of the El Cazador, but many specifics that I'd be interested in knowing are lacking. Still, it may be worth a look to anyone who's interested. See: http://www.elcazador.com/ElCazador.pdf

    To the question of how NGC authenticates coins as coming from a particular wreck, this is what they have to say regarding that point on their website: "NGC Shipwreck Certification uses the term GENUINE to describe authentic shipwreck coins and artifacts with confirmed and documented origins. Recovered artifacts may be identified by attestation from the individuals who discovered the wreck, an independent archeological survey or other means. The assigned pedigree and authenticity of the wreck are subsequently confirmed independently by NGC experts. While often available, additional archaeological evidence is not necessary to support this designation."

    I've inquired, but for whatever reason, NGC seemingly either can't or won't say just how many 8 reales from the El Cazador they've authenticated, but it has to be at the very least hundreds, and probably thousands, and of course there are evidently many more that never were NGC certified, As was noted before, most of those brought up from this wreck were supposedly dated 1783. Now I checked NGC's population of the the 1783 Mo 8 reales submitted under normal circumstances, and they number only a mere dozen, with the highest graded being a single MS-61. How the bounty of El Cazador 1783's affected the value of these "ordinary" ones I can't say for certain, but I suspect it had to depress their worth to some significant degree. However, I admit that I don't see that a dip for that date has manifested itself in the catalog to confirm that. If NGC ever gets back to me with a census of El Cazador certified coins, I'll post that datapoint here.

    Odyssey, the company that brought up the coins from the Republic, engaged individual numismatists (as well as NGC) at an early stage in processing their coins, and thus was made cognizant of the potential impact that the release of large quantities of a single date and denomination could have on pricing. What helped Odyssey out in avoiding this peril was the relative diversity of what was recovered, which meant they could afford to heed advice against flooding the market with any one issue. I'm also working on getting a detailed inventory of that haul.

    I've finished the book on the Republic and have started on the one telling the story of the wreck and salvage of the Brother Jonathan. I'd still like to find a really detailed account of the retrieval of the El Cazador cargo.

    Finally, any comments on the condition of the particular coin with which I started this thread?
     
  7. Swervo513

    Swervo513 Well-Known Member

    I am not an expert but I am a proud owner of an El Cazador 8 reales coin. Mine came slabbed and I slightly overpaid for it. But, that was way back when I was just starting collecting more expensive coins. Anyway, there is some neat history behind the coin. You are also correct that data is limited on this subject. But, as an owner of one of these coins I can say that I appreciate your effort to learn more about them. Maybe, you can be the first to record certain data points about the coins.

    In regards to your coin, I would say that the grade looks pretty darn good (without being able to see the reverse). So much so that I would be concerned about its authenticity. But, maybe its just the photo. Again, I am not an expert so I can not tell you if its fake or real with certainty. It would help to see the reverse.
     
  8. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    Well, this wasn't a "parking lot" purchase, as I said at the beginning of the thread, the dealer I acquired it from is well known in this region & highly reputable. In fact, they had gotten a trio of these in varying degrees of deterioration, this one being by far the most presentable of the lot, but nevertheless priced the same as the other two, all being charactrized as "impaired" coins. At another (also reputable) shop in the area, they have an NGC slabbed one in the case for a whole $50 (albeit that coin itself is extremely rough & much more eroded in comparison to mine), so the market seems to have recently weakened for these, at least around these parts.

    Anyway, attached is a pic of the reverse.
     

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  9. Swervo513

    Swervo513 Well-Known Member

    Once again I can say the coin looks to be a very nice example. But, the picture seems to be reflecting a lot of light which does not allow me to see the crevices and shadows of the coin's surface. Still its a very nice example.. I post a picture of mine when I get a chance. I paid about $175 for mine when the prices were soaring. Im sure you can find one in the same condition as mine for half the price in the slab and all.
     
  10. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    According to Marex Global Deep Sea Recovery's website, the quantity of 8 reales denomination coins they brought up from the El Cazador was in excess of 400,000. So the supply is robust, and as the novelty of being "shipwreck treasure" has worn off, I'd expect demand to flag a bit. Despite the coins being struck over two centuries ago, given the circumstances under which they've appeared en masse, you're probably better off analyzing the market for them as you would that for a modern silver issue of comparable size.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  11. Lucky Cuss

    Lucky Cuss Cobrador de Plata

    I have received NGC's reply to my inquiry as follows:

    "NGC did no [sic] keep a population for El Cazador, just the coin itself. "

    That's obviously at odds with only the dozen 1783 Mo's I'm seeing in their census.
     
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