Numismatik Naumann Auctions

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by panzerman, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. talerman

    talerman Well-Known Member

    My bank charges me US $ 30 for repetitive (preset for each auction house) international wires but $ 40 for foreign currency bank drafts. Maybe I should open an account at your bank ! On the plus side, I do get very competitive exchange rates for both.
     
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  3. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    Consider using Transferwise. I was hesitant to use them at first but nobody is cheaper than they are for wire transfers that I know of. An example, I sent payment for 500 Euro, the exchange rate was current (they did not add to it for profit, or if they did so it was lower that I could calculate), the fee was a paltry $6.82. Its worth looking into.
     
  4. jcbrown

    jcbrown Member

    I've had no issue with the coins I've won. All were as good, or better, as the pictures online. My only complaints are how they run their auctions, and their fees. Multiple times they claimed to have web issues, and have extended their auctions several weeks after the final bids were submitted. Their fees and shipping prices are at the high end.
     
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  5. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    This is very interesting. Lot #607 AV Zecchino from Chios/ Crusader States is graded mint state. It was listed as previously in CNG E-auction 406/ where it was VF. I think it looks so bad on a auction house to list provenance, and have their coin posted with as MS/ when it was VF in CNG auction.:(. Makes their grading suspect.....
     
  6. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    At the risk of repetition... who really cares?? Few ancient coin collectors make purchase decisions based on a seller's opinion of grade.
     
  7. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    Indeed... grading for ancient coins only makes sense if pictures aren't available. Otherwise, even a poor picture is the best way to show the grade. All of the unique attributes/facets of a coin cannot be distilled down into F/VF/EF. It's very possible to have a coin be mint state while looking VF if the strike is poor.

    By this metric, if the quality of an auction house is indicated by their conservative grading, then shouldn't every auction house label each coin as "Poor"? Then every coin would exceed expectations.

    On a related topic, I was having a conversation at NYINC with a dealer who said that he's "seen NGC's grading of ancients recently become more conservative by about a half a point". I'm normally very mild mannered but I ranted at him, saying that is absurd and explaining all of the reasons it doesn't matter. I really hope this isn't the direction the world is taking...

    And, further indicating the subjectivity of grading, here's an example from a recent auction:

    1.png

    2.png

    The coin certainly didn't change, and they referenced the previous sale. Maybe they fat-fingered the grade the first time around but I don't think anyone actually cared. I was the buyer from the first sale and sold it in the second (taking a loss - I've upgraded it recently).

    Honestly, I didn't even notice the grade until I was reading the catalog during the auction. There would be no chance I would complain to CNG that the coin I bought wasn't the grade they referenced. They could have labeled the coin Choice MS, FDC, VF, EF, Poor... I would have bid the same amount and it would have sold for the same amount.

    Ancients are not US (or world) coins.
     
  8. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I disagree. With the increasing presence of slabs in the hobby, a greater number of buyers are buying the labels and don't know enough to look at the coin inside. They may ask our advice on the coin and be told not to remove the coin from the slab because it will resell for more as MS in plastic than VF in hand. I respect dealers that do not place grades on their descriptions of photographed coins. They are not after the inflation market. I don't care, you don't care but the labeled grade is the most important feature to the average buyer of ordinary coins in high grade. The price of coins of several rulers may be the same but the people who can't tell rulers apart do know they should pay more for that inflated label. Those of us who buy for the coin don't care. When will we become the minority? Tomorrow? Yesterday?
     
  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    My statement still stands; an ancient coin collector is not the same thing as a slab/grade collector but your point is valid. This is why it is important to continue harping on the the lack of importance of formal grading.
     
  10. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    At the risk of seeming to pile on, I'm going to weigh in on this topic too.

    Anyone collecting ancient coins who seriously regards a coin's grade as something other than a curiosity is primarily an investor or speculator, not a collector. It doesn't matter whether this grade is from NGC, a dealer, an auction house, etc. In this era of high-quality online digital pictures, true collectors can assess far more from these pictures than from any level of grading. Viewing the coin in-hand is the only way to do better than a high-quality picture.

    The key word here is "buyers." Doug's "buyers" are not collectors in the sense of the word as we use it on this site, so TIF's statement about collectors is accurate, while Doug's statement about buyers is also accurate. These are two different sets of people.

    A final observation: the vast majority of coins posted on this site are not accompanied by a grade of that coin's condition, unless that coin happens to be in a slab. I never post grades for my coins, for the simple reason that the grade is irrelevant, as it is for most of the coins posted by collectors on this site.
     
  11. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    I couldn't believe the competition and interest in today's NN auction! :wideyed: There were no "sleepers" or bargains to be had.

    This bodes well for the hobby, I think.
     
  12. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    When all coins in a sale go high, I see it as bad for the hobby since this probably means more sales went to investors. What bodes well for the hobby is when the good coins sell well and the lesser ones go low showing the buyers were selecting things they wanted and not just unloading surplus cash. Most sales include a few coins that probably made the sale because the house had to include them to get the better things in a consignment. When buyers separate winners from the ordinary they send a message to the market that is not the same as when everything goes up or down together. I don't follow NN anymore so I have no idea whether all coins were great (a rare situation) or whether buyers just had more money to spend and spent it.
     
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  13. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I agree with Doug, if prices keep on escalating like in past 50 years, it will soon really be a hobby for kings. I remember the CNG/St. James Lissner Sale. The second part of his collection, the finest graded Latin American post colonial coins. Most went 10X or more estimates. I ended up winning ZERO lots. All of the coins went to "rich" collectors, leaving the average coll. like myself out in the cold. I am not sure if its all because of speculators, or there are many billionaires who have great taste, rather then just keep all there $$$$ in investments, now are into beautifull collectibles. There are probably many modern day "Farouks" out there. The Naumann auction had some crazy prices, the coin I was after, a MS Otacila Severa AR Denarius/ Hippo sold for over 1000 euros.
     
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  14. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    It wasn't the case that EVERYTHING went for above estimate or sold. I just said there weren't any bargains and I still feel that way. There were some coins that went unsold or for reasonable prices -- mostly lower grade material, such as an aVF Trajan wolf semis (RIC calls these quadrantes), an aVF Nerva denarius for 46 Euros, or two or three Gallienus antoniniani that were overpriced at a starting bid of 40 and failed to sell. There are other examples, of course, but these came to mind because I was watching them and/or bidding on them.
     
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  15. AncientJoe

    AncientJoe Well-Known Member

    This can also be misleading. The ratio of final price to estimate is not indicative of the success or failure of a sale. Estimates can be set for a variety of reasons and with bias in either direction: perhaps the consignor wanted reserves, requiring high estimates or perhaps the auction house wanted to advertise "5x estimates" so they started everything irrationally low.

    I think the most I've paid over estimate was 20x and the least was 60% of estimate (the open). I wouldn't have changed my bid for either of them if the estimates were different or if the lots opened at $1.
     
  16. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I am not so sure. The ancient coin market especially the Greek is rather small and can be affected greatly by a few individuals with very deep pockets. Anyone who has been around fro the last few years should remember the infamous"sheik" who had a very powerful effect on the prices of ancient coins. I think anyone who is buying even high end coins for eventual profit should exercise caution. Me I am in my mid sixties and suspect that I will be lucky to break even should I dispose of my collection in the next 10 years.
     
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  17. panzerman

    panzerman Well-Known Member

    I would say, the market trend is towards high quality coins, no matter if we are talking ancients or coins struck 1850-1933. Also, the prices have really escalated since the 1960s. Reason, more and more people are in middle class, and now can afford the hobby. Before it was the sole domain of the nobility/ ie upper classes/ the hated one percenters. To prove my point, I am in the 99 percent group, yet I have 850 AV gold coins, in other words its collectors like me that are responsible for the hot market. Now with so many more Third World Countries establishing their own middle classes, hence more and more collectors. The demand far exceeds the supply;)
    John
     
  18. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Reality check... P-man, at some point in the past here on CoinTalk you disclosed your yearly income and you've also indicated that your wife has income/money. Based on that you are most definitely part of the "one percenters" in Canada, even without counting your wife's income.
     
  19. Nap

    Nap Well-Known Member

    I am mostly against highly technical grading of ancient and medieval coins but I think it’s preposterous to suggest grade doesn’t matter, or that description of a coin’s condition isn’t important when you have a picture. Unless you get to see every lot in hand (and have the skills to evaluate coin condition) or have a personal representative at every auction (who knows their stuff), the majority of the coins for consideration are essentially sight unseen. Reliable and conservative description of condition is one of the marks of an honest auctioneer, and a part of the determinant of the price. Some coins really don’t photograph all that well, and photography quality is quite variable.
     
  20. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    I think 'preposterous' is too strong of a word. I get it, there are many who are just too wrapped up in 'grade' and that is entirely how they buy their coins. Good for them, but its not for everyone. I've been at this over 30 years as a dealer and I have seen it all. However it is true: with an average quality photo one can get the general idea. Sure, color is sometimes off, it may be blurry, but one can easily ascertain a 'grade' from any general photo. But for some they just cant tell what a grade might be, though they are under the spell of the market in general (which tells them they should buy the highest grade possible). It is for those people that coins are graded. That and of course higher sales for the dealer.
     
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  21. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I more or less decide whether or not I'm interested in a coin when I see the picture. After that I may look at the posted grade more as a confirmation rather than for anything else. I think posting the grade is useful but I believe it is up to the buyer to do the due diligence when purchasing. In my previous post I will say I still have reservations. The statistics quoted by Panzerman whom I greatly respect, were of the market in the past which is dominated by the "baby Boomers" a generation that has a great deal of surplus wealth. That will not be the case in a few years. The boomers are leaving the hobby and are being replaced by "X" ers and Millennials neither group as large nor as wealthy as the Boomers
     
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