Numismatic Ethics

LOL, I think he's even a little higher up than Peter !!

 

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The difference is that you know a dealer is an informed seller. Honest, informed people can have good-faith disagreements in value.

In both cases, one party to the transaction is deliberately withholding information from the other party with the intention to gain at the other person's loss. And that is what I believe to be wrong.

 

I am not angry or bitter. I have never ripped a person off and never will, I dont lowball and I am not trying to suck every last penny I can get out of fellow collectors I claim to care about by getting a coin slabbed for pretty much no other reason than to justify hiking the price up...how about you?

 

Have we touched a nerve there Drusus?

Me or any of my buddies have never posted such nonsense anywhere.

See ya later, I have to get my next PCGS shipment out today. Edit: I don't peddle my pennies, in most cases they sell themselves. I am suprised this offends you.

 

Bingo !!

 

Once GDJMSP and I got into a hypothetical discussion about a coin shop, thief, collector, and the police. Our views eventually were 180º apart and we both felt the others view and subsequent actions were simply wrong.

I defended my position with the simple 'Golden Rule -- Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You.'

Was I wrong or was he wrong? Both of our responses were totally legal and would have been appropriate in the numismatic community. We simply dealt with the problem in different ways.

Take Care and Peace
Ben

 

Its the ones who pretend to be the most honest and ethical that are always the biggest hypocrites. If we are done now...I leave you to your high horse.

 

So it is ok to get a good deal as long as someone knows they are giving you a good deal, or at least supposedly has the knowledge to know, but it is not ok to get a good deal if someone doesn't know that they are giving you a good deal? YOUR LOGIC IS ABSURD.

Do you think a coin dealer would sell you a $5,000 coin for $20 if he knew it were a $5,000 coin? Of course not. By your standards if you knew the coin was worth $5,000 and you bought it for $20 it would be ok because a dealer is supposedly knowledgeable. However, if you made the same transaction with a man off the street it is immoral. Also I'm sure you would be withholding information if you knowingly purchased this coin from the dealer under these circumstances, because if you exercised your own morality in this case you would not receive the coin for $20.

Your arguments make no sense!!!! You have percieved an extra layer of morality that only applies to some people some of the time. If you want to think that way fine, but you should preach it and live by it. It must apply accross the board to every situation. You must proclaim your fortune before you receive it to make sure it is moral to receive it.

 

This thread reminds me of ethics classes in college, where the purpose of each discussion was not to determine who is right and who is wrong, because in some cases, there is no absolute right or absolute wrong parties. The idea was to debate the topic (in some cases, without end - like here!) exhaustively in order to hear everone's opinion, and hopefully come away with a different point of view.

And to the OP, don't take anything here too personally. When I was younger, who knows what I would have done in the same situation. You did start one of the more interesting threads I've particiapted in, it sure has livened things up!

 

Funny you mention that.... I am just arguing for the sake of logic... my feelings would never permit me to take a roll of walkers from a little old lady at face value (unless she had a hairy chin, and a shrewd voice which would incline me to believe she eats children and then I would have to capitalize as a form of repayment for her misdeeds). haha
However, I still don't think it is immoral to buy them from her at face value if she offered them in such a manner. Still I would probably offer her a better deal like 12 x face just because I know.....

Then again I see the bank teller's point.... He didn't know whether it was a whole roll or one coin. People bring silver coins into banks all the time... Honestly, I believe it is their loss. If they don't care to check, or at least be inquisitive about what they have.... they are going to get a shabby deal no matter what. It just so happens that a bank is the worst deal going for depositing silver coins.

 

Edited to follow forum rules...

Ben

 

I see we have an ethics teacher in the thread. I'm working on a second BA Degree and am actually taking a Business law / Ethic course this semester.

Here is my take on the situation. First you have to determine if the question at hand is an "ethical situation" Are there laws that prohibit this action, are there professional conduct standards that address this situation.

Using the bank teller senario 1) the coins are being accepted at their legal face value, so this isn't (legally) theft and the teller did not try to mislead the customer, so it is not fraud. 2) does the bank have policies reguarding tellers disclosing "value" to customers(professional standards)? Does the bank have policies preventing employees from buying out of the drawer? (Professional standards) Does the bank require the employee to report the "value over face" transaction (...could be considered embezelment, but that is a strech).

Since we don't have legal or professional standards in place it comes down to ethics. And what are ethics, in plain english: the application of common societal mores and values in decision making and actions. Basically it is -What your momma taught you about right and wrong-

We can make up hypothetical situations about the diffrence between finding a $20 note on the side of the road vs seeing some one drop it and if it matters what kind of car they are driving. In an ethical situation 10 people will have 10 diffrent answers because we all have diffrent life experiences that brought us to the decision.

As far as professional ethics in a coin shop or any other "small business", if you treat your customers bad they will vote with their wallet and shop somewhere else. If you treat people right they will come back. Call it karma, call it word of mouth advertising, call it being a "good guy", but what ever you call it realize that it does happen.

Think of the nusmismatic organizations, Is the ANA Dealer sign in a coin shop bought and paid for OR is that organization willing to censure members for ethical violations? The same holds true for any professional association.

Example include Medical Boards, Bar Associations, etc.

/Now if you will excuse me...I'm at work and goofing off on cointalk is ethically wrong :whistle:

 

You said that already

Drusus, it would be childs play to take this further and to continue to press your buttons, lets just leave it alone.

 

Cmon..... how does that statement match up to societal norms?

Somebody say it was funny!

 

Explain why it is absurd. It makes perfect sense to me.

How often do you think a professional coin dealer knowingly sells a $5000 coin for $20? This is not a real-world example.

And even in the very rare occasion where a dealer did knowingly sell a $5000 coin for $20, it's not unethical for you to buy it because both parties in the transaction are aware of the facts. The man-on-the-street selling a $5000 coin for $20 is not aware of the facts.

The action of buying a coin below market value, in and of itself, is not unethical. The withholding of information is unethical.

If you're talking about a situation where a dealer made an honest mistake and thought the coin was worth far less than its actual value, yeah, you should bring it to his attention.

 

If i were the teller I would have done just as he did. There is nothing wrong with taking any good fortune that comes your way so they should enjoy their find just as the older woman is enjoying her 10 bucks or w/e it was

 

You have to go with your conscience, and know that what comes around goes around. If you buy $240 worth of halves for $10, when you go in for an auto repair in a few weeks the mechanic might turn around and screw you on your bill.

 

Sir Bedevere: Did you dress her up like this?
Peasant 1: No!
Peasant 3, Peasant 2: No!
Peasant 3: No!
Peasant 1: No!
Peasant 3, Peasant 2: No!
Peasant 1: Yes!
Peasant 2: Yes!
Peasant 1: Yeah a bit.
Peasant 3: A bit!
Peasant 1, Peasant 2: A bit!
Peasant 2: a bit
Peasant 1: But she has got a wart!


/I'm willing to bet this is not obscure

 

Ok here goes.... No one would give you that kind of deal if they "knew the facts". So I cannot really accept your argument that dealers are knowledgeable because they are dealers. No one would come to terms on a "deal" of that sort with full knowledge of what they were doing.

My local dealer often doesn't know what he is talking about, but I go to him for advice anyways. He has been involved in the hobby far longer than I have, and he can teach me things. I keep my mouth shut when I know he is wrong.

It is a real world example... Read "Tales from the Bourse" by David Lawrence. pg 12 The Excitement of Coin Collecting... Also published in Coin World. He speaks of someone cherrypicking varieties worth several thousand dollars for a couple of hundred bucks.... dealer to dealer.

It may not be the exact same example but the point is it can, does, and has happened. The frequency of such happenings has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that your argument is subjective and not based on a set standard

If someone came to me, and asked what they had, and if I would like to purchase it from them I would be morally wrong to mislead them to get a god deal.... If someone says "hey would you give me $10 bucks for this roll of quarters without asking me anything else" it would not really be wrong for me to say yes if I knew more about the quarters than they did. Their lack of knowledge is my gain and vice versa.

All I am really saying is my knowledge doesn't make me a bad person. Someone else's lack of knowledge does make them uninformed.

I will restate the scenario...... either way you sell the coin you withhold knowledge to get a good deal...... Nobody would willingly give you the terms below, or for that matter 5 for 50, 2 for 20, or 1 for 10.... unless they were just being nice.

"Do you think a coin dealer would sell you a $5,000 coin for $20 if he knew it were a $5,000 coin? Of course not. By your standards if you knew the coin was worth $5,000 and you bought it for $20 it would be ok because a dealer is supposedly knowledgeable. However, if you made the same transaction with a man off the street it is immoral. Also I'm sure you would be withholding information if you knowingly purchased this coin from the dealer under these circumstances, because if you exercised your own morality in this case you would not receive the coin for $20."