Numismatic Ethics

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If you know, you are morally obliged to say so. If you don't know, then there's nothing you could have done. Teller A is morally obliged to say something, while Teller B is not. (In my opinion.) With the knowledge comes responsibility.

As to the question of how much is enough to necessitate saying something, I think if it's enough value for the teller to want to bother buying, it's enough value to necessitate telling the customer.

 

I have a question for Richie...I am interested to know...now that you have been judged from on high...up on that not so lonely pedestal of smug self righteous ethical and moral absolute authority...

Now that it has been made known that you rob and cheat starving old ladies (as far as we know, there certainly aren't any old ladies that aren't poor but cash in coins) and probably eat babies as well...Now that it has been firmly established that you are well into the black in the black and white ying yang of numismatic ethics....now that the internet numismatic moral authority has deemed you reprehensible....ethically challenged if you will. You might even be criminal (I never bothered to look if what you did is illegal but it just sounds good as I judge you from my high horse). Now that we all know that you are no better than Hitler...

Now that the judges on high have made it clear that one is rewarded for not being like you (reward being heaven thus you know where YOU are going). I have 3 questions...

Tell me...was it worth it? would you do it again? Whats your next caper? Taking pennies out of the blind beggars cup?

 

Richie:

Finally, someone who understands how it works.
__________________
I steal from old ladies.

Now that you have shown us your true colors, I would have to say you get the award for being unethical. Congratulations.:headbang:

 

Judgements about people happen everyday and in this case I have no problem stating it was a cheat if the teller did not atleast tell her they may be worth more than face value. IF she didn't care, that is another matter, but from what I have read it seems she was cheated.

 

The notion that bank employees are only there to issue debits and credits doesn't hold true. I know a 90 year old man whose wife took care of all the financial transactions before she passed away. The poor guy had never even written a check in his entire life. He went to the bank after his wife died and went into the first office he came across. The girl there personally handles all his transactions including deposits and issuing bank checks for certain transactions, along with advice as to which accounts to use depending on the circumstances.

In addition, many banks offer IRA's along with investing advice (ususlly putting the money in their bank) and also offer advice involving start up businesses and the like.

Not long ago I read about someone depositing some obsolute $1000 bills (might have been right here on this board) and the bank returned them to the customer because of their numismatic value.

Whether it be ethics or customer service, I think informing the customer in cases like the OP stated is the proper thing to do. In fact, If I were a teller and the boss told me to do otherwise, I'd quit but not before giving the boss a tongue lashing he'd remember for the rest of his life.

 

Uhhh.... thats not cherrypicking.... That's called stealing...... Two different things.


Banks are not rare coin dealers.... They give you face value for you money, and everyone knows that. If you take take old coins to a bank, it's your problem, not the teller's.

If you happen to be a knowledgable teller, it would be kind of you to let the person know what they are doing; however I don't exactly think of it as morally reprehensible if you do not. Why? Because the person taking their coins/ paper money to the bank is responsible for their own actions, not the bank teller. There is no trickery involved here. You are not lying to anyone. No one has asked you to appraise their goods before they trade them in for worhtless Federal Reserve Notes.

In fact cherrypicking from a dealer is much the same. Regardless of the dealer's level of knowledge if you cherrypick from him/ her you are getting a great deal based on the dealer's ignorance or lack of attention to detail.

Forcing myself into feeling feeling guilty about other people's ignorance would get tiring very quickly. Just because I know of something that someone else does not doesn't mean I am obligated to share that information everytime I am aware of another's shortcomings. IMO you attach emotions to your decision... You feel sorry for the unwitting person who is giving away something of great value for very little. Her is the point... Value can only be extracted with awareness, and Value can only be understood with awareness. If you are not aware of Value, or aware of full Value than your level of awareness has attached a different level of Value to something than the person who is fully aware. There is no immorality here only different perspectives. Should I be compelled to always make someone think like me since value is a frame of mind? I think not.

However; if you enjoy making people happy, and bettering their lives sharing knowledge is a great thing.

 

a grown person being expected to take five minutes to open the end of a coin role to see whats in it? absurd!!! responsibility for ones own actions is for suckers. Jump on the band wagon and call him a crook...its fun and gives you a great feeling of smug self satisfaction and superiority...

 

LOL
Drusus, you are a bitter sorry little person aren't you

 

With high metal prices I suppose I should start going through people's trash for valuable metal.

Do you know a 30 gallon trashbag full of soda cans can fetch in upwards of $25 at the local scrap yard? People unwittingly "recycle" them while paying sanitation fees for "removal".

When the contractor shows up to replace your old aluminum storm windows he will probably charge you a disposal fee so he can cart them to the scrap yard and get a couple hundred dollars in exchange.

 

This thread is very interesting and begs the question, where do you draw the line. How many silver coins does it have to be? I suppose it would be nice to inform the customer that they have silver worth more than face and if they search around and find an honest dealer they can sell their roll of coins for silver value..


Now what happens when the silver makes it's way into the vault without anybody noticing. Now I go to the bank and trade for this roll and it is full of 90% silver. Do I go back to the bank (the roll did belong to the bank after all) and say, this roll is worth more than face, you should go find a dealer and sell it for silver value?

When does the exitement of the find cloud judgment?

 

We were on a golf vacation a few years ago and we get off the green and are making our way to the next tee and there's this young kid, there, selling golf balls. He had a 5-gallon bucket of balls, and was selling the balls at a half-buck a piece. So I told him I'll give him 10 bucks for the bucket and all...and, after a little hesitation, he sold it to me. So I put the bucket in the cart in between my partner and me, and we're driving to the next tee...and then I get the lecture. "How could you take advantage of a young kid like that? There must be fifty to seventy-five dollars worth of balls in that bucket. The poor kid probably spent weeks, maybe months, going around the perimeter of the golf course in the hot desert sun collecting these." Do you know what my reply was? "I just taught the kid a valuable lesson in business." Think about it...

Anyway...if I were the bank teller, here, and I could see the coins were worth substantially more than face value, I'd without a doubt inform the depositor of same, and suggest he/she think over making the deposit. I know that's not my "job," but I know I'd do it. But, then again, if it were an 1893-S Morgan Dollar...well, there are limits.

 

This is exactly how I feel. The truth is, I could have told her and my boss wouldn't have cared...he doesn't care about things like that. In my case, I wasn't 100% sure that the roll was solid walkers while she was still in the branch (I thought the chances of that were decent) but I had my own customer to help. But, I work at a bank and banks give you face value for your money. Customers need to be responsible for their own actions.

To me, it is cherrypicking. By saying it's not, it's acting as if I have never set aside anything for myself at the bank before. It's almost as if everyone here envisions me as a teller who all of a sudden one day happened across a roll of walkers and I jumped on it...that's not exactly true. I always check the cash and change I get in through my deposits looking for things. I don't know how many star notes, radars, low serials, silver coins, old design coins, ect... I have found, but a lot. Was I ethically obligated to tell those depositors that "this is a radar note and some collector out there would pay more for it than $1," or is this moral code simply applied to old people with coins? To me, this was just another example of a nice find because I was looking while I worked at the bank. I was hired to do face value transactions and, if in the course of doing that I find things that I want for my collection, I can set them aside so I can buy them at face value. Its amazing that until now, with all my other finds (see Paper Money board & this Board) which I never mentioned what the age/gender of the depositer was I always had the "collectors dream job."

A blind beggars cup? Nah, the chances of something nice in there is pretty slim. Actually, I was thinking that since now I'm evil...I suddenly realized the chances for personal gain are much higher. I'm going my sites on something else. You see, there is this Christmas tree every winter that my church puts up and you can buy something for an underprivileged child and leave it there for them. The church than gives it to a child in need. Well, those presents always look mighty nice and...well...you know, I really can't go into any more detail about my plan. :whistle:

 

You don't know me from Adam...I have never been anything but honest in all my dealings. I am the best customer any dealer could hope to have and I assuredly buy coins from people who have no clue what they have at a much more fair price than any dealer while half this forum seems in auto lowball mode. But don't let that stop you from issuing judgments and throwing insults about peoples integrity and ethics on the internet...you are on a roll.

 

I'm loving this thread.

 

Opportunity Knocks

As a consumer I am always looking for a good deal. If is is offered to me without my having to even search it out.... Why is it immoral for me to act upon it? Sometimes opportunity seems to seek you out... It finds you!

There is a difference between doing something honestly and getting a good deal because of it, and cheating, stealing, et cetera.

There is also a difference between being the benefactor of a weakness that you did not perpetuate, and being a predator. A predator looks for weakness to exploit, and then acts accordingly for personal gain without regard to others. Traveling gold and silver buyers for example are somewhat but not entirely predatory in that they rip people off, but without being secretive. They say, "this is what I will give you for what you have... take it or leave it." A bank teller is merely performing a function where someone comes to him/ her, with a full expectation of exactly what they will receive in return. If that teller can then legally purchase that roll of coins from the bank, IMO he/ she has been given an opportunity that should be seized upon.

Once again there is absolutely nothing wrong with following your heart, and sharing knowledge for the betterment of others.

I absolutely do not think a guilt trip should be laid upon someone who gets an honest good deal without doing anything wrong. Guilt is evil in and of itself in that it you lay judgment upon yourself and others. Man often finds pleasure in the elevation of himself to "Judge".

My question is who did he hurt? In order to prove that the old woman was hurt you have to make up unknown scenarios. She did what she did, and got what she expected. The same thing would have happened if she advertised a $20,000 car for sale for $3,000. If she received only $3,000 for the car she got what SHE WANTED, and nothing less.

 

If you were selling a painting from your attic at a yard sale and had it listed for $20, would you want someone to tell you that it was actually worth $50,000 ?

Would you want someone to tell you that the used car you are about to buy has been in a flood and will break on you?

Do unto others as you would want done to you.

The difference between a mere "good deal" and the subject of this thread is that in a normal good deal, both parties are aware of all aspects of the transaction. In the subject of this thread, one party knowingly witholds information from the other party.

I'm not trying to guilt trip anyone here, I am merely opining on the subject.

 

Well in your view cherrypicking from dealers is wrong, and basically anytime someone gets what they want from something, even know it represents a great value is immoral if the person receiving the deal doesn't proclaim... "Wow you know what you are selling me is much more valuable than your asking price."

Ludicrous..... If you wish to add an extra layer of invented morality to something go ahead.... I actually think that is a good thing in some cases; however, you are not in the wrong if you do not subscibe to that morality.

This is the same line of thought that keeps proud single moms from receiving WIC.

The government takes your money against your will, but you are too proud, or too moral to receive it back in the form of a gift that is being offered to you.

I pay over $50,000 a year in taxes.... anytime the government wants to give me anything I'll say ok. Part of me thinks they are thieves, and it makes me sick how they waste my livelihood by giving away my money in pork barrel spending/ and to pay off the interest built into the dollar. So i'm not too good for a handout... I paid for it. In fact... giving is a good thing, and makes people feel good right? I am doing you a service by receiving your gifts with a loving heart. Thanks!

If a normal adult wishes (they themselves want to) to sell me silver coins at face value I'm going to say OK. If it were a little kid I would have to teach him/ her, but to think old ladies are stupid and helpless is a trick I would have to play on myself... not on the little old lady.

Also selling someone anything that has something wrong with it for full price while you know it is broke or whatever is is completely different than buying something at a good value. One scenario is clearly dishonest while the other is not.

 

I am not dissing your coin dealings, and I am sure you play fair. BUT, what I HAVE SEEN you do is call those who slab coins for resale thiefs and crooks. You have stood up and defended those who crack problem slabs and sell the coins as raw gems, and here you excoriated me indirectly and called me the king of judgement, etc etc. On a sister site, I have seen you post cartoons of an X-President with alheizhimers as a dribbling fool.

What would you expect one to call you, based on your past threads and actions?

I am not the judge Drusus, there is one with much higher authority than I, I was simpy stating what I would do in ANY case...treat others as you would wish to be treated. Don't cheat folks, EVEN when you can get away with it and " justify" it. I am not on the proverbial soap box, my actions can back up my thoughts and comments.

Perhaps you could share with the class the source of your anger and bitterness, this group can be very helpful you know.

 

Is that Peter?