NGC or PCGS: The Ultimate Poll

Hey Copper, If the coin is valued over $200, I never crack and submit raw (esp since I deal so much with colorfully toned coins) -- there is just too much of a chance they might never get slabbed again. For cheaper coins, I might crack and submit raw if they are rejected the first time, especially if I want a TrueView photo of them. Toned coins are a roll of the dice half the time!

 

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It's been my experience that a PCGS grade vs. an NGC grade that are the same....PCGS gets a better price at sale. That's what I really care about. Like some of the others here...I agree that it's going to vary based on service and actual grader. You can send a coin to PCGS twice and get different grades sometimes...same with the other guys! Personally, if I don't plan on owning a coin forever I go with PCGS because when/if I sell I don't want any questions asked. A good numismatist can look at a coin graded by any service though and tell whether or not the grade is solid.

 

here is an example of some of my experiences comparing NGC grades with PCGS grades

Here is an NGC PR67 Lincoln Cent I bought last year



So I sent this into PCGS with the coin still in the NGC slab for crossing ... It didnt cross at grade.

So I sent it in again this time allowing an up to 2 grade drop
It graded as PCGS PR65.

I sent it in a 3rd time for an upgrade evaluation, thinking that PCGS might have simply be "punishing me" for buying an NGC coin. So this time it was in a PCGS slab as PR65 and PCGS would have no memory of this formerly being in an NGC slab.

Results ... Once again PCGS PR65.

So PCGS thinks this is a SOLID PR65 ... while NGC thinks this is a PR67 ... same coin ... totally different grades.

Luckily the difference between PR65 and PR67 for this particular coin is minimal ... however if this was a Matte Proof Lincoln, that difference in those two grades could be tens of thousands of lost dollars.

Upshot: BE CAREFUL trusting NGC grades ... my experence is they are typically 1 grade too high when crossing to PCGS and sometimes (as with this coin) 2 grades too high ... especially with copper and gold. For some reason I have better luck crossing NGC silver coins at grade to PCGS.

 

So between vette and wingedliberty, I've learned a lot. I spent a lot of time on both registry's last night as well as seeing the real life example wingedliberty provided. What's really important and what we all seem to agree about is the importance of the coin itself. The holders are preferred for different reasons, but I'm understanding why folks see PCGS as a better investment holder.

As promised I appreciate the feedback from all!

 

Take this with a grain of salt ... this is just my opinion.

I think that most SELLERS of coins (i.e. some or most Coin Dealers) prefer NGC ... because NGC typically grades a coin higher than PCGS ... so a seller can maximize his profit. Especially where there are huge differences in prices between grades. I have seen a lot of sellers of NGC coins trying to get PCGS prices (you see this all the time with BUY IT NOW auctions on ebay).

I think that most (saavy/experienced) BUYERS of coins prefer PCGS ... because with PCGS you have the most strict grading system applied and are less likely to get ripped off. I have seen a number of coins where NGC blessed a colorful coin as Natural and Gradeable ... but PCGS rejects as Artificial Toning (Questionable Color). So be especially careful buying NGC graded colorfully toned coins (my experience is about 15% to 25% or so will be tagged Questionable Color by PCGS).

Just be sure to ask yourself before buying an NGC coin, would I pay as much if I knew this was already submitted to PCGS and graded "Genuine" or one to two grades lower?

Of course I am NOT saying PCGS is PERFECT and never makes a mistake. They are human and we all make mistakes. I have seen a few coins in PCGS slabs which I think were definately AT'd. However IN GENERAL ... overall ... on average ... PCGS is more strict with color and more strict with grades than NGC.

And I am sure there are cases where NGC graded a coin LOWER than PCGS. But my experience is these are VERY FEW and far between.

When you buy an NGC MS66 ... just realize that PCGS will more than likely call it a MS65 ... and could potenailly call it GENUINE. So watch the price guides carefully.

And if you buy a colorfully toned NGC coin ... there is a chance (perhaps once again 20% to 25% chance that PCGS will slab the coin "Genuine - Quesitonable Color"

Keep in mind that some (many) NGC coins might have already submitted to PCGS and rejected as Genuine/ Not Gradeable ... so sellers will submit to NGC as a last gasp ... trying to get NGC to slab it so they can sell (dump) it.

I have a toned lincon that was rejected by PCGS as "Genuine -- Questionable Color" that I am thinking about subitting to NGC (I bet you NGC grades it too). Now I am not a seller of coins (I think I have sold 3 in my entire life) but often submit coins to TPGs as an experiment. It's pretty educational watching what happens.

So the dealers/sellers will tend to promote and push NGC and say how good it is ... trying to convince the buyers that NGC coins are just as good as PCGS coins (at similar grades). Then (some) may try to get you to pay PCGS prices for NGC slabs ... esp prevelent in Buy It Now eBay auctions.

I am not saying ALL DEALERS unscrupulous or shady ... I am sure there are lots of honest ones. But I am conveying what I have seen with some.

This is JUST MY OPINION!

 

To say something is your opinion and then use terms like "most buyers" and "most sellers" is sort of funny, don't you think? Paul, you are an obvious PCGS kool-aid drinker, we all know that from your previous posts and your absolute love of PCGS images. But, I have to vocally disagree with what you try to pass off as your opinion...NGC and PCGS both have their good and bad points, but your casting of NGC as a "last ditch effort" to get a coin slabbed or as a "second rate, low tier TPG" is really off the deep end. AND, it has been shown many times that PCGS coins submitted to NGC and NGC coins submitted to PCGS both have potential to upgrade or downgrade...so the silly and unfounded promulgation of the idea that "NGC grades are always one point higher" mentality is just smoke and mirrors.

PCGS prices are artificially high for many reasons. Among them the fact that many, many people play the PCGS registry game and PCGS doesn't like to "play nice" so they restrict their registry sets to their own brand of plastic. NGC registry sets for US coins allow both PCGS and NGC coins. Another reason is because PCGS "price guide" prices have very little base in reality. Uneducated people look at a price guide, think it is gospel, and shell out the money to pay for such a coin. Just because you put a "value" for a coin on your website doesn't mean it is worth that or would bring anything close to that in an auction.

I consider myself an experienced and savvy buyer of coins. And, I don't prefer NGC or PCGS...I prefer the best coin. So, I would argue that your understanding of "savvy and experienced" is a bit off the mark. I feel sorry for people who think PCGS is somehow magical, as you have closed your collecting to at least half of the available high grade coins in the market. I mean, if one cares to convince themselves that "only PCGS is collectable" then I dare say you are neither savvy nor experienced.

Of course, this is all just my opinion.

 

I agree ... my language was too absolute

I was trying to qualify it as just my experience ... but it came off as a global statement

I appologize profusely GDJ and BRG and to any others that were offended!!!

So sorry

 

A few more examples of NGC coins that I crossed to PCGS. I have probably crossed close to 20 coins (admittedly a relatively small sample):

- I have NEVER had the grade go up when crossing to PCGS (not saying that can't happen, it's just never happened to me!)

- Crossing grades have always been either the same or less by up to 2 grades when going into a PCGS slab.

- I have had a few NGC graded slabbed coins that PCGS wouldn't grade at all, due to what PCGS termed "Questionable Color" -- for these coins PCGS left the coins in the NGC slabs in which they were submitted.

So when you send an NGC slabbed coin to PCGS, they will will leave it in the NGC slab until after they are sure it will cross to PCGS as a gradeable coin (you can actually specify the minimum grade you will accept from PCGS) -- that way the value is not distroyed in case you are never able to get NGC to slab it again of if the value of the higher grade in the NGC slab is much above the lower grade that PCGS would have placed on it.

I have heard of a few people that cracked out an NGC slabbed coin only to find later on that neither PCGS or NGC will slab it again as market acceptible (ouch). That can amount to a big loss in marketable value.

Here are two more samples of some of the coins I have crossed from NGC to PCGS:

This was an NGC Proof 68 that I bought off ebay ... It crossed 2 grades down to Proof 66 in a PCGS slab





Next is an NGC Proof 66 that I bought off ebay ... that crossed to PCGS 1 grade down at Proof 65. It's interesting that NGC thought this was a BN and PCGS thought it was a RB. All you need is 5% mint red color for a RB designation so I suppose it depends on whether the grader thought the red in the coin was original mint red or not. I have to admit that to my eye, this does look like original mint red color, so I think PCGS's RB color designation is correct, while NGC's BN color designation was incorrect.




I have had some cross at grade however. I think my success rate at crossing at grade is probably a bit less than 50%. I have had the least luck crossing copper coins at grade. The most luck with silver coins.

 

It's too bad that both PCGS and NGC didn't use the exact same grading standards. Then there wouldn't be any dispute over cross-overs.

 

One of the problems is grading is an opinion and subjective ... and everyone seems to have different opinions. I have a feeling if I submitted the same coin 10 times to PCGS and 10 times to NGC, I would probably see a spread of grades ... even amongst the grades from the same company. So some of this might depend on how much of a stickler the PARTICULAR person you get to grade your coin.

I think that both of these companies probably have a fairly large TEAM of graders. This is why you hear about people cracking out coins and submitting them over and over trying to luck into a higher grade (really luck into a more lax grader). With some coins a 1 grade increase can increase the "book value" by thousands of dollars. This is what most people mean when they say "buy the coin, not the slab".

 

Winged, sending them as crossovers is a mistake for either company. Cracking them out and sending them raw will most likely improve your results. Have you heard the term "crackout artist"? I never hear of a person referred to as a "crossover artist". It takes stones to do this, but the risk/shot is where the money is to be made so to speak. But by all means, keep doing the same thing if you want the same results. I wish for you to have the highest grade possible in the plastic that you prefer for sure my friend.
Matt

 

copper, i bet you are right on that front

 

The debate regarding the consistency of TPG will wage on forever. I posted a response on another thread about how vague grading was in the "old days" before TPG in the 80's and before. I remember the "word" grades- Poor,Fair, AG, Good, Fine, Very Fine, Extra Fine, About Uncirculated, Uncirculated, and BU Uncirculated. Now, talk about consistency there!!! Enough wiggle room to drive a truck through, and room for endless subjectivity. Here, we are arguing within a NUMERICAL range, where there, an entire standard was in question. What did BU mean before TPG? Is it what is nowadays a MS 63 or a 65? What about the "slider" coins that have been very lightly cleaned to make them look uncirculated, when they were true AU coins? What about subjectivity there?? Yes, it encouraged people to be good graders, but then again, a lot of misrepresentation and blatant fraud took place.

Do I think TPGs always get it right? Of course not, as human beings are open to subjectivity. Have standards gotten easier--yes, certainly to a degree, and a lot of it isn't deception--it is just that after looking at millions of coins, it is hard to maintain objectivity. However, on the whole, I think TPG policies have made the coin hobby and business (they are often highly intertwined) far more of a level playing field. It isn't a 100% level field, as the same coin can be grades somewhat differently on different days. However, in my opinion, both NGC and PCGS, on the whole, do a pretty good job of grading overall. Do they misgrade coins---yes, both over and under grades take place. However, it has made the sight unseen purchase of coins possible--I don't have to drive or fly to California from Florida to make an intelligent purchase. For that, I am happy with both companies, and always buy the coin I like, and not the holder as the final decision. The bottom line for me is always---DO I LIKE THE COIN? That decision rests with me, and not the TPG services.

 

So which is it? You claim that there are shady dealers who dare to promote NGC coins, then turn around and state that you plan on sending a coin you know PCGS has deemed ungradable to NGC ("I bet they will grade it too") so what does this make you? You cannot have it both ways... if you want to make such outrageous and insulting claims regarding NGC graded coins, why are you doing the same as these lowlife NGC dealers?

PCGS is not your buddy. They are a business who has a direct interest in what their coins grade out as and have spent a lot of money getting people like you to swim in the koolaid, and from what I've read in your posts it looks to be money well spent. Propaganda isn't not cheap. If PCGS had any interest in being truly independent (or at least on par with NGC in this regards), they would institute the same policies as NGC and get the heck out of anything to do with the sale of coins.

Let me ask you this: which is worse.. a company who grades to their standards, or a company who sets their standards to give the appearance of being more conservative than another company? What do you suppose would happen if tomorrow NGC reverted back to their standards of the past, or better yet to strict ANA standards?

This is not a personal attack, and to be totally honest, in most cases I too prefer PCGS, but under no circumstance will I drink the koolaid. Each service has their ups and downs, pluses and minuses, so to make a blanket statement that one is better than than the other is pure nonsense. Had you only made a case for copper/toned copper, you probably would have come off as being more "savvy/experienced".

To imply that the almighty PCGS "could potentially call it GENUINE" without reference to a specific coin, or avoid saying that the opposite can and has happened, is ridiculous. Have you ever considered the effect such a statement could have on a newbie, especially with the one-sided examples you later posted? While it is good you repeatedly stated that this is just your opinion, doing so does not justify claiming opinions as fact.

 

Wow Winged, I applaud you for taking all these attacks in stride. Seems to me like there is pretty bitter Kool-Aid over at NGC! To me, your opionion is your opinion and just because you "play the game" doesn't mean you can't have it both ways.....

Just remember guys, just because it's a different flavor doesn't mean it's not Kool-Aid. :thumb:

I happen to agree with you on copper and Eisenhowers. With the other series, I cannot comment. All I know is "other people" are mighty defensive over their NGC.

Like it or not with my experience, Winged is correct on almost everything he wrote. I have 5 dealers that I deal with the most. 3 only deal with PCGS. 1 primarily deals with NGC, but he's NOT the most scrupulous dealer.....and the last sells all his NGC slabs at least 20% below PCGS slabs.

Perception is reality, like it or not.

 

Your point in that thread may have been better made had it not been intertwined with contradictions of previous claims (dead issue anyway).

While you may not see the benefit of non-number grades, many including myself do. How can you knock the old ways and then turn round and defend subjectivity in grading? This is another contradiction. What is so wrong with calling a coin I view as an AU55 and you view as a AU58 "choice AU"? There is nothing wrong with it, and if you take the time to think about it, the old so-called "letter grades" were superior in some ways to the numbers used today. It is simply a different method that has its place.. just as TPGs and number grades have their place.

With all due respect, dude, I find it hard to understand what your issue is with the "old days". Coins are still offered as "BU", "AU", "VG", etc and there is nothing wrong with this. Actually, what this does is put some level of responsibility on the buyer and makes grading knowledge a necessity. What difference is there if a dealer in 1970 marked a lifeless, lusterless coin as "BU" to the guy who does the same today? If you do not agree, don't buy it... problem solved. Same goes for TPG graded coins.. if you do not agree, don't buy the coin. If you are a collector, why care about the consistency of others? Your consistency is what should matter, right?

Knowledge and experience were the key then, just as they are the key today. I believe one of the greatest aspects of coins to be that we can agree to disagree.

In a way, yes... but if you are okay with buying a coin retail sight unseen just because NGC or PCGS has deemed it MSxx, you just may be setting yourself up for some serious disappointment. Which carries more risk.. buying a coin sight unseen because a TPG graded it or buying only from trusted sources (slabbed or raw)? If you deal with the right person, safe sight unseen purchases have always been possible, but as previously stated, you need to be able to trust yourself.

 

I am not a dealer and I dont buy coins to sell or flip ... I am a collector ... I have sold just a very tiny sample of coins (certainly less than 5) in the 45 years I have been collecting.

I was going to submit that coin rejected by PCGS to NGC out of curiousity to see if NGC graded it (a long time collector friend of mine also told me he thought NGC would grade it).

Am I getting it graded so I can sell it? No!

I actually like the coin and the way it looks. However getting a toned coin slabbed by NGC does provide at least half credibility -- it's better than a raw coin (IMHO).

 

Fine and respectable post, but why claim NGC has only "half credibility"? Winged, you are of course entitled to your own opinion and I admittedly agree with most of what you said. If you like the coin and NGC does slab it, why is it only "half" credible? Because PCGS labeled it as having questionable color? What really matters more... the opinion of PCGS or YOUR opinion?

 

Here is some additional food for thought about the whole PCGS grades vs. NGC grades and whether or not they are comparible.

Take a look at the PCGS price guide vs. the NGC price guide
for a 1909vbd Matte Proof Lincoln.

First the PCGS Online Price Guide

PCGS PRICE GUIDE


Next next the NGC Online Price Guide

NGC PRICE GUIDE


Anybody notice a 1 to 1.5 to 2 grade offset between roughly equivalent prices?

A PCGS PR64 RD sells for roughly the same price ($37k) as an NGC PR65 RD ($36k) ... that's a 1 grade gap.
So I bet if you sent in 10 NGC PR65 RD slabbed coin to PCGS, most would slab at PCGS as PR64 RD. (one grade down)

A PCGS PR64 BN sells for roughly the same price ($18k) as an NGC PR66 BN ($19k) ... that's a 2 grade gap.

It appears the PCGS slabbed coin with a given grade is more valuable in the marketplace than an NGC slabbed coin of the same grade.

I think this is compelling evidence that PCGS grades are stricter (at least for this series (Matte Proof Lincolns)).

If NGC graded Proof Copper the same way PCGS graded Proof Copper ... I think these price guide prices would be a lot closer between the two companies.

I bet the prices are closer for silver coins, as my experience has been silver coins seems to cross at grade more frequently.

Copper coins do sometimes cross at grade (I have had a few do that) -- but often (I would even say typically) they cross 1 to 2 grades down going from NGC to PCGS.