NGC Grading Class At CSNS

That seems to always be the case whenever 'change' is thrown around. Change can be good though.

I just hate to focus on educating myself and at least not letting the masses know there is another trap ahead waiting for them.

Ehh, I guess I care too much.

 

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I honestly don't see a lot of rare coins getting major grade bumps due to rarity. Sure, a point or two maybe...but not several grades. I have never seen a truly AU 1893-S Morgan called an MS63/64. I have seen what I believe to be an AU55 called an MS60 or 61 though.

I have seen certain key dates with obvious problems slabbed...and I disagree with that practice, but like I said before...the consumers clearly want it. If they didn't it wouldn't happen and I don't believe it's happening because of some TPG/dealer conspiracy to con collectors.

 

I've been a sheep and have reached the stage of a "baa-aaa-aaa-aaad" individual. As my grading capabilities improve maybe I'll become human again..!

 

You have just touched on a topic that I hate more than any other in our hobby. This idea that the market is "willy nilly" and will just up and change in the future is a complete and total fallacy. As is the idea that the TPGs consciously loosen and tighten their grading standards. I have always said that gradeflation is the natural and predictable result based on the inherent subjectivity in coin grading. PQ coins for the assigned grade will be resubmitted until they become low end coins in the higher grade. Over time, this process will make it appear that the TPG's have loosened their grading standards even though it never happened.

When the TPGs first started in the 80's, they made mistakes. They even admit that some of their policies were flawed. The hard and fast rules employed in grading coins became problematic and they were forced to start making exceptions to the rules. Allowing for roll friction, silent net grades, allowing for specific mint conditions were all changes that were made to the grading process over the years. It is unfair to blame the TPGs for changing their procedures. They were in their infancy and were simply growing and refining their grading methods so that they could accurately judge as many coins as possible. Those changes were not arbitrary and are not an indication that the policies will simply be reversed at some time in the future because "the market" changed again.

If you wanna worry about whether PCGS or NGC will still exist in 50 years or what the coin market will look like in 50 years, be my guest. IMO, there are much more important things to worry about 50 years from now.

Don't take this the wrong way. I understand your point, and I even agree with it to a certain extent, but I really think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. When you start using the word predatory, I think of people selling stocks or cars or real estate. I certainly don't think of the TPGs as predatory.

 

How do you not see the benefit to the dealers and TPGs in what you described? Plus we just talked about how the majority of coins being sold are from dealer to dealer.

I don't think it's a conspiracy just that it shows education is SEVERELY lacking.

 

I think this fact alone hurts your argument. If the dealers are using these inflated grades to fleece uneducated collectors...then why do dealers do more business with each other than with dealers?

I don't see the huge issue that you see here. I also think that the majority of these problems will be solved with education. I also plan on being here in 50 years...and I'm not that worried about this.

 

A typical response from the lunatic fringe. By posting a kool-aid photo, your insinuation is that I "blindly" agree with everything that the TPGs say and do. If that is true, then maybe you can tell answer a question for me. When is the last time that I disagreed with the TPGs on this forum?

 

Only if you don't realize that the dealers will make money by utilizing this method too. You also have to know whether the dealers are educated enough to notice the issue to begin with. They might not be as educated as they need to be either.

It's still a good business model for the dealers and TPGs to 'silent net grade', or pass borderline examples of sub par coins.

Again I ask, what dealer doesn't want to see his AU-58 come back MS-63 and make that extra money. I don't think you would find too many who would price it much below it's stated grade on the slab.

Also, would that very same dealer not submit more coins in hope of them coming back similar? That's how those 2 parties win.

The collector can occasionally make the same 'win' but it is degrees less than the frequency this happens with dealers. Sheer volume dictates that.

 

Maybe another solution would be breaking grades into 3 or 4 categories.

You have top of the line at

Full Details MS-63 (substitute any grade)

Just regular old grades denoting run of the mill grades.
Plain old,
MS-63

Next is for 'silent net grading or MA coins'

Market Acceptable MS-63

Then of course

UNC Details for the truly atrocious stuff.

At least then we would know what we were getting a little better.

 

Well that idea just made the TPGs a few more million.

Imagine all the resubmittals to have the new 'grades'.

 

Easy new designation too.

MS-64 FD
AU-55 MA
MS-65
XF-Details

 

You had me in the first sentence, then you lost me. The TPGs give us one grade for our money. There are four different criteria for grading coins: surface preservation, luster, strike, and eye appeal. I would like the TPGs to give us their individual grade for each of these criteria along with their resultant total grade. IMO, it would help collectors understand the market grading process. For example, the following coin:



might receive these grades:

SP: MS66
L: MS67
S: MS65
EA: MS68

If they were to do this, it would be clear that the coin was given a bump in grade for the outstanding color & luster. It doesn't solve the issues that you are talking about but it would help with the overall understanding of market grading.

 

I don't think that dealers are making the killing you seem to think they are by having coins slabbed.

 

If you think what I posted was nonsense, then post your rebuttal. Truth, what truth? You haven't posted anything that challenges any of my assertions. And even if you did, they would be opinions, not truth.

It was in fact at 12:46PM today. I made the post linked below.

Post your Lincolns

What it shows is that I am not the mindless kool-aid drinker that you would like the other members of this forum to believe. It follows your SOP to attack the credibility of the poster whenever your argument doesn't hold water.

 

I think this is the single best explanation for the gradeflation concept I have ever heard. Systems logic thinking is required with analyzing the results of subjective grading coupled with 10's of millions of graded coins. A good question would be how many total intact holdered coins exist vs total number pcgs/ngc graded ever. We all hear stories about the guy who sent his coin in 20 or more times.

personally I think that the tpg's rescued the hobby. The bottom line is while we all talk a good game about how important it is for the collector to be educated the collector statistically speaking will never even approach the knowledge base of the professional. I'm too busy working to spend 10 hours a day every day studying and grading coins. If you need my professional help unless you are trained and certified you will never come close to knowing what I know. This is the same for collectors vs dealers. The tpg helps protect the collector because almost by definition the collector will never be able to grade and judge coins as well as the dealer.

People are predatory not just coin dealers. In any field when someone is not constrained by a fiduciary legal relationship they will almost always want to take advantage of the other person. This is why fiduciary relationship laws were created, to prevent a professional from taking advantage of someone who is basically clueless. My lawyer can't write a contract that I use with employees that has a buried tiny print clause signing away all of my possessions to her. This is because I have to relay on her since I don't know anything about writing contracts.

Coin dealers have extensive knowledge that collectors lack. I'm not advocating making a coin dealer/ collector relationship a fiduciary one. What I'm saying is the tpg's take away a very large but not total advantage from the dealer and allow the collector the ability to purchase coins knowing the coin they buy is at least close to as advertised. collectors don't have to worry about buying a slider at 65 money. Sure the tpg's May grade off a point up or down but at least they give the collector confidence that they are not totally getting screwed.

 

ok lost Dutchman im all for taking the course and shelling out the primo.. but hummm where do I get it...???

 

I took my course at the Whitman show in Baltimore. Look for any big show in your area (or area that you're willing to travel to). You might also email class@ngccoin.com and see what schedule they may have coming up.