Log in or Sign up
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Newp: my second Yuan round coin!
>
Reply to Thread
Message:
<p>[QUOTE="AnYangMan, post: 2887343, member: 87271"]Since I have joined and introduced myself a while back, I have not yet posted an awful lot of Chinese coins. I must say school has kept me rather busy, and so has reading the new posts on this forum. This weekend however, we had our annual ONS (Oriental Numismatic Society)-meeting, and I made a purchase I am sure you would all quite enjoy.</p><p><br /></p><p>I am sure the majority of you are all familiar with the ancient Chinese Cash-style coins; a round coin, with a square hole. This type arrived somewhere in the mid to late Warring states period, in the state of 秦 <i>Qin</i> . This however, was not the first type of round coinage of the ancient Chinese states. For the earliest type of round coin was most likely issued by cities in the state of <i>Wei </i>(魏, after the capital move of 361 BC also called 梁 <i>Liang).</i> These earliest round coins, supposedly evolving either from the jade 璧 <i>Bi</i>-disks or bronze vessel rings (both theories are at least somewhat farfetched in my opinion), are rather large in size (around 40 mm, enormous when compared to the later Chinese Cash coins), and have one specific feature that set them apart from the other round coins issued in the period: they have round holes!</p><p><br /></p><p>Precisely one year and twenty-one days ago, I purchased my first example of one of these early round coins. I believe I have already shown this coin on this forum, as well as on a couple of others. Anyway, I thought I would start off this topic with showing it again:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]693244[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]693245[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>A rather nice, in my opinion, round coin, although if you are really picky, the first thing you might notice is the patina on the obverseand corrosion. This was probably part of a hoard, found in some sort of waterlogged area, hence the bubbly surface along the edge. While prying this hoard apart, a section of the patina of the adjacent stuck to this coin instead, resulting in a rather colourful ‘transfer-patina’. Some collectors, including myself, don’t really mind this, it increases the odds that the coin is genuine, but I can see how some might be bothered by it. The character is a little vague due to the adhesion of dirt on the obverse, but nothing too disturbing. The ID-tag glued to the back, referring to the Schjöth-catalogue, was glued on by the previous collector. The auction house couldn’t give me a name due to privacy concerns, but told me that it came from an old German collection formed in the seventies/eighties. I was, and definitely still am, rather content with this coin; it is after all a beautiful coin, with a genuine and relatively colourful patina, and with a little provenance! So I never even thought about upgrading it. Forward to last Saturday, the ONS meeting. Besides interesting lectures and an auction, there are always also a couple of members offering a few of their coins for sale. Normally the amount of Chinese coins for sale is not overwhelmingly large, and most of the times we are only talking about late Song/Qing cash anyway. Then I saw this coin, nestled comfortably between two later Islamic coins, and I immediately fell in love with it. Such a beautiful, crisp patina with amazing blue highlights (If I haven’t told so before; I am an absolute sucker for coins with blue patinas), a clear, clean edge with a nicely visible casting sprue! A bit expensive for the type, but I simply had to own it. So I bought it, even though I already had a perfectly good specimen! Did I overpay, especially when compared to my other specimen? Yes, definitely. Do I mind? Nope, not one bit! So, here is my newly purchased coin:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]693238[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]693247[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>Quality-wise I’d say it is an upgrade; the readability of the character sure has gone up. Speaking of the inscription; it is time for the write-up!</p><p><br /></p><p>I might have already mentioned it, but the character visible on the obverse is an archaic form of 垣 <i>Yuan</i>. This reading is, contrary to the readings of several of the other round coins, rather certain, for the documentation concerning the etymology of this character is relatively extensive. It appears in a number of excavated texts from around the same period, as well as a couple of earlier bronze inscriptions. Besides, the same character is also used on one or two different contemporary coins. And I just so happen to have two in my collection. The interesting bit is that these two spades are attributable to the kingdom of 趙 <i>Zhao,</i> while the round coins posted above are from the <i>Wei/Liang </i>state. Yet the calligraphy is almost identical. This is due to the fact that these two states have a common heritage, background, and to some extent culture, but more on that later. The two spades:</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]693250[/ATTACH]</p><p>[ATTACH=full]693251[/ATTACH]</p><p><i>Note the faint numeral (11 in this case) in the right shoulder of the reverse.</i></p><p><br /></p><p>Both are of a late type (350 – 222 BC), attributable to the city of 襄垣<i>Xiangyuan</i>, located in the modern-day county by the same name. I can tell an awful lot more about this type of coinage, it is the main focuspoint of my collection after all, but I am afraid I have to do that in some other topic once. As previously mentioned, they were issued by the State of 趙 <i>Zhao, </i>right where it bordered with the state of 韓 <i>Han. </i>The period in which they were issued wasn’t called ‘The warring states’ for nothing, and armed conflict between these two states was all but rare. These border-towns were therefore frequently walled or otherwise fortified, as can be seen by the names of some of these cities. The 垣 <i>Yuan </i>in 襄垣 <i>Xiangyuan </i>translates to ‘a low/city-wall’ for example. The same goes for the town that was responsible for issuing these early <i>yuan</i>-round coins; which was simply called 垣 <i>Yuan. </i>Even though it wasn’t really a border-town (it was located quite safely in the Wei-heartlands), it still had impressive defences. This is specifically mentioned in the historical sources. Both the <i>bamboo annals </i>and the 史記<i> Shiji</i>, (the latter possibly drawing from the first, older work) mention that in the first quarter of the 4th century BC, the state of <i>Wei </i>fortified three of their cities: <i>Anyi</i>, <i>Luoyang </i> and you’ve guessed it: (<i>Wang) Yuan</i>.</p><p><br /></p><p>As far as I know, the site itself has not yet been excavated, but the approximate location is known to us, in what we would nowadays call <i>Yuanqu-</i>county (垣曲县) in south <i>Shanxi </i>(山西). Located safely along one of the side-branches of the yellow river (which formed the border between the <i>Wei </i>and <i>Han </i>states), in the foothills of the 太行<i>Taihang </i>mountains, it quickly became in important <i>Wei</i> city in the beginning of the Warring states. It initially belonged to the Red di barbarians (赤狄), but the predecessors of the <i>Wei </i>state, 晋 <i>Jin,</i> conquered massive tracks of land, including the <i>Yuan</i>-area from these barbarians, in the late Spring and Autumn period. After the tripartition of <i>Jin</i>, the area was divided in three, and the control of <i>Yuan</i> fell to the state of <i>Wei.</i> At this time, the city was also called 王垣 <i>Wang Yuan, (Wang </i>meaning ‘king’s’) probably to differentiate between multiple cities also called <i>Yuan. </i></p><p><br /></p><p>Interesting to see is the fact that these round coins inscribed <i>Yuan</i>, often have an alloy very high in copper. The British Museum for example tested two specimens, both respectively being 97 and 98 percent pure copper! Other specimens are slightly less pure, but generally speaking they are more than 90 percent copper, a significant increase over most of the other Pre-Han coinage, and even over the majority of round-type coinages. Here we can draw an interesting parallel, between numismatics and actual history, geography and archaeology. I already mentioned that the city of <i>Yuan</i> was located in the foothills of the 太行<i>Taihang </i>mountains, an area, as it turns out, rather rich in copper-ore. The mining in this area is quite famous, dating back to at least the late 商 <i>Shang</i>-dynasty, and has carried on until the present day. We even have a fully preserved copper mine, the so-called 北峪 <i>Beiyu</i> copper mine, dating between the <i>Han</i> and <i>Tang </i> dynasties, located about a dozen kilometres from the <i>Yuan </i>site. Could the copper used for these coins be from a similar, local copper mine? I say it, especially when looking at the relatively high amount of copper these coins contain, certainly isn’t that farfetched.</p><p><br /></p><p>The exact date the issuing of these round coins commenced is uncertain. David Hartill dates them between 350 BC and the end of the <i>Zhou </i>period, in around 220 BC, when the state of <i>Qin </i>conquered all opposing states, unifying China in the process. Naturally, this unification wasn’t an overnight process; <i>Qin </i>expansion already been going on for at least a century. Initially, at the beginning of the Eastern <i>Zhou</i> period, the central states (<i>Jin, Qi, Zhou, etc.) </i>thought of <i>Qin</i> as being a barbarian, outsider state, with little to no common heritage. Their influence in the early period was limited, and during the early warring states period (475 – 221 BC) it came under heavy pressure from its newly created neighbours; the three <i>Sanjin (</i>三晉) states of <i>Zhao</i> , <i>Han</i> and <i>Wei</i>. These three states were the result of an internal split in <i>Qin’s </i>previous neighbour, the state of <i>Jin </i>(hence the <i>Sanjin, </i>litt. ‘the three Jins’), in 453 BC. <i>Wei </i>in particular, assumed early dominance, that lasted till about 350 BC. Large tracks of Qin territory were forcefully taken by a coalition of these three neighbouring states around 400 BC, and <i>Qin </i>was forced to retreat and regroup to its heartlands.</p><p><br /></p><p>While they were doing so, <i>Wei </i>reached its all-time high. As I have already mentioned, important <i>Wei-</i>cities, such as <i>Luoyang, Yuan </i>and its capital, <i>Anyi, </i>were fortified with huge rammed-walls, new cities sprung up left, right and centre, and we have evidence for a complex economic system. Spade and round types of coinage were issued in large number in a large variety of cities. Around 360 BC however, <i>Qin </i>made its re-entry, after legalist philosopher <i>Shang Yang (</i>商鞅) had implemented major reforms and renewals. <i>Wei, </i>obviously impressed by the sudden <i>Qin-</i>rise and fearing a swift invasion, moved their capital from the western city of <i>Anyi</i> to the eastern city of Daliang; this city was located further from the border with <i>Qin </i>than <i>Anyi</i> had been. This fear was certainly not unfounded. In the year 292 BC, <i>Qin, </i>led by general <i>Bai Qi </i>(白起), launched a massive and successful assault against the <i>Wei </i>and <i>Han </i>states, capturing several large cities, and even sacking the important city of, you guessed it, <i>Yuan </i>垣, where these round coins were issued! Even though it was sacked, the control of <i>Yuan </i>was quickly returned to <i>Wei </i>again. This would not last long however, and the same <i>Qin </i>general conquered the city again a mere two years later. They also conquered the previous capital of <i>Wei, Anyi, </i>and several other major <i>Wei</i> cities. <i>Yuan </i>would remain under <i>Qin </i>control for the remainder of the Warring States period, as part of the newly created <i>Yuan-county. </i>If we assume that these round coins were indeed solely cast by the <i>Wei </i>state, which the archaeological evidence certainly does support, we can now attach a certain end-date to this coinage: 290 BC!</p><p><br /></p><p>That is all the information I have concerning this type. If you have anything else to add, please do so! And just to finish off this topic, a picture of the two together. Both measure 42 MM, while the coin on the right, my initial round-coin, weights around 10.57 gram, as opposed to the 9.59 gram of the coin on the left. Both weights are well within the excepted weight-bracket for this type.</p><p><br /></p><p>[ATTACH=full]693248[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]693249[/ATTACH]</p><p><br /></p><p>So, which one do you prefer? I am still keeping both though, I can’t stand departing with a coin I have had in my collection for a while now; I have grown quite accustomed to it. And I am a big fan of these early round coins <img src="styles/default/xenforo/clear.png" class="mceSmilieSprite mceSmilie2" alt=";)" unselectable="on" unselectable="on" />. I know several members here also have this <i>Yuan </i>coin ([USER=81887]@Parthicus[/USER], [USER=78244]@TypeCoin971793[/USER] and perhaps [USER=75799]@Loong Siew[/USER]?), so I’d love to see those here! Post anything else you like by the way; round coins, other <i>Zhou </i>coinage, or other ancient coins with a lovely (blue) patina! Let’s see those beauties!</p><p><br /></p><p>Mika[/QUOTE]</p><p><br /></p>
[QUOTE="AnYangMan, post: 2887343, member: 87271"]Since I have joined and introduced myself a while back, I have not yet posted an awful lot of Chinese coins. I must say school has kept me rather busy, and so has reading the new posts on this forum. This weekend however, we had our annual ONS (Oriental Numismatic Society)-meeting, and I made a purchase I am sure you would all quite enjoy. I am sure the majority of you are all familiar with the ancient Chinese Cash-style coins; a round coin, with a square hole. This type arrived somewhere in the mid to late Warring states period, in the state of 秦 [I]Qin[/I] . This however, was not the first type of round coinage of the ancient Chinese states. For the earliest type of round coin was most likely issued by cities in the state of [I]Wei [/I](魏, after the capital move of 361 BC also called 梁 [I]Liang).[/I] These earliest round coins, supposedly evolving either from the jade 璧 [I]Bi[/I]-disks or bronze vessel rings (both theories are at least somewhat farfetched in my opinion), are rather large in size (around 40 mm, enormous when compared to the later Chinese Cash coins), and have one specific feature that set them apart from the other round coins issued in the period: they have round holes! Precisely one year and twenty-one days ago, I purchased my first example of one of these early round coins. I believe I have already shown this coin on this forum, as well as on a couple of others. Anyway, I thought I would start off this topic with showing it again: [ATTACH=full]693244[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]693245[/ATTACH] A rather nice, in my opinion, round coin, although if you are really picky, the first thing you might notice is the patina on the obverseand corrosion. This was probably part of a hoard, found in some sort of waterlogged area, hence the bubbly surface along the edge. While prying this hoard apart, a section of the patina of the adjacent stuck to this coin instead, resulting in a rather colourful ‘transfer-patina’. Some collectors, including myself, don’t really mind this, it increases the odds that the coin is genuine, but I can see how some might be bothered by it. The character is a little vague due to the adhesion of dirt on the obverse, but nothing too disturbing. The ID-tag glued to the back, referring to the Schjöth-catalogue, was glued on by the previous collector. The auction house couldn’t give me a name due to privacy concerns, but told me that it came from an old German collection formed in the seventies/eighties. I was, and definitely still am, rather content with this coin; it is after all a beautiful coin, with a genuine and relatively colourful patina, and with a little provenance! So I never even thought about upgrading it. Forward to last Saturday, the ONS meeting. Besides interesting lectures and an auction, there are always also a couple of members offering a few of their coins for sale. Normally the amount of Chinese coins for sale is not overwhelmingly large, and most of the times we are only talking about late Song/Qing cash anyway. Then I saw this coin, nestled comfortably between two later Islamic coins, and I immediately fell in love with it. Such a beautiful, crisp patina with amazing blue highlights (If I haven’t told so before; I am an absolute sucker for coins with blue patinas), a clear, clean edge with a nicely visible casting sprue! A bit expensive for the type, but I simply had to own it. So I bought it, even though I already had a perfectly good specimen! Did I overpay, especially when compared to my other specimen? Yes, definitely. Do I mind? Nope, not one bit! So, here is my newly purchased coin: [ATTACH=full]693238[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]693247[/ATTACH] Quality-wise I’d say it is an upgrade; the readability of the character sure has gone up. Speaking of the inscription; it is time for the write-up! I might have already mentioned it, but the character visible on the obverse is an archaic form of 垣 [I]Yuan[/I]. This reading is, contrary to the readings of several of the other round coins, rather certain, for the documentation concerning the etymology of this character is relatively extensive. It appears in a number of excavated texts from around the same period, as well as a couple of earlier bronze inscriptions. Besides, the same character is also used on one or two different contemporary coins. And I just so happen to have two in my collection. The interesting bit is that these two spades are attributable to the kingdom of 趙 [I]Zhao,[/I] while the round coins posted above are from the [I]Wei/Liang [/I]state. Yet the calligraphy is almost identical. This is due to the fact that these two states have a common heritage, background, and to some extent culture, but more on that later. The two spades: [ATTACH=full]693250[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]693251[/ATTACH] [I]Note the faint numeral (11 in this case) in the right shoulder of the reverse.[/I] Both are of a late type (350 – 222 BC), attributable to the city of 襄垣[I]Xiangyuan[/I], located in the modern-day county by the same name. I can tell an awful lot more about this type of coinage, it is the main focuspoint of my collection after all, but I am afraid I have to do that in some other topic once. As previously mentioned, they were issued by the State of 趙 [I]Zhao, [/I]right where it bordered with the state of 韓 [I]Han. [/I]The period in which they were issued wasn’t called ‘The warring states’ for nothing, and armed conflict between these two states was all but rare. These border-towns were therefore frequently walled or otherwise fortified, as can be seen by the names of some of these cities. The 垣 [I]Yuan [/I]in 襄垣 [I]Xiangyuan [/I]translates to ‘a low/city-wall’ for example. The same goes for the town that was responsible for issuing these early [I]yuan[/I]-round coins; which was simply called 垣 [I]Yuan. [/I]Even though it wasn’t really a border-town (it was located quite safely in the Wei-heartlands), it still had impressive defences. This is specifically mentioned in the historical sources. Both the [I]bamboo annals [/I]and the 史記[I] Shiji[/I], (the latter possibly drawing from the first, older work) mention that in the first quarter of the 4th century BC, the state of [I]Wei [/I]fortified three of their cities: [I]Anyi[/I], [I]Luoyang [/I] and you’ve guessed it: ([I]Wang) Yuan[/I]. As far as I know, the site itself has not yet been excavated, but the approximate location is known to us, in what we would nowadays call [I]Yuanqu-[/I]county (垣曲县) in south [I]Shanxi [/I](山西). Located safely along one of the side-branches of the yellow river (which formed the border between the [I]Wei [/I]and [I]Han [/I]states), in the foothills of the 太行[I]Taihang [/I]mountains, it quickly became in important [I]Wei[/I] city in the beginning of the Warring states. It initially belonged to the Red di barbarians (赤狄), but the predecessors of the [I]Wei [/I]state, 晋 [I]Jin,[/I] conquered massive tracks of land, including the [I]Yuan[/I]-area from these barbarians, in the late Spring and Autumn period. After the tripartition of [I]Jin[/I], the area was divided in three, and the control of [I]Yuan[/I] fell to the state of [I]Wei.[/I] At this time, the city was also called 王垣 [I]Wang Yuan, (Wang [/I]meaning ‘king’s’) probably to differentiate between multiple cities also called [I]Yuan. [/I] Interesting to see is the fact that these round coins inscribed [I]Yuan[/I], often have an alloy very high in copper. The British Museum for example tested two specimens, both respectively being 97 and 98 percent pure copper! Other specimens are slightly less pure, but generally speaking they are more than 90 percent copper, a significant increase over most of the other Pre-Han coinage, and even over the majority of round-type coinages. Here we can draw an interesting parallel, between numismatics and actual history, geography and archaeology. I already mentioned that the city of [I]Yuan[/I] was located in the foothills of the 太行[I]Taihang [/I]mountains, an area, as it turns out, rather rich in copper-ore. The mining in this area is quite famous, dating back to at least the late 商 [I]Shang[/I]-dynasty, and has carried on until the present day. We even have a fully preserved copper mine, the so-called 北峪 [I]Beiyu[/I] copper mine, dating between the [I]Han[/I] and [I]Tang [/I] dynasties, located about a dozen kilometres from the [I]Yuan [/I]site. Could the copper used for these coins be from a similar, local copper mine? I say it, especially when looking at the relatively high amount of copper these coins contain, certainly isn’t that farfetched. The exact date the issuing of these round coins commenced is uncertain. David Hartill dates them between 350 BC and the end of the [I]Zhou [/I]period, in around 220 BC, when the state of [I]Qin [/I]conquered all opposing states, unifying China in the process. Naturally, this unification wasn’t an overnight process; [I]Qin [/I]expansion already been going on for at least a century. Initially, at the beginning of the Eastern [I]Zhou[/I] period, the central states ([I]Jin, Qi, Zhou, etc.) [/I]thought of [I]Qin[/I] as being a barbarian, outsider state, with little to no common heritage. Their influence in the early period was limited, and during the early warring states period (475 – 221 BC) it came under heavy pressure from its newly created neighbours; the three [I]Sanjin ([/I]三晉) states of [I]Zhao[/I] , [I]Han[/I] and [I]Wei[/I]. These three states were the result of an internal split in [I]Qin’s [/I]previous neighbour, the state of [I]Jin [/I](hence the [I]Sanjin, [/I]litt. ‘the three Jins’), in 453 BC. [I]Wei [/I]in particular, assumed early dominance, that lasted till about 350 BC. Large tracks of Qin territory were forcefully taken by a coalition of these three neighbouring states around 400 BC, and [I]Qin [/I]was forced to retreat and regroup to its heartlands. While they were doing so, [I]Wei [/I]reached its all-time high. As I have already mentioned, important [I]Wei-[/I]cities, such as [I]Luoyang, Yuan [/I]and its capital, [I]Anyi, [/I]were fortified with huge rammed-walls, new cities sprung up left, right and centre, and we have evidence for a complex economic system. Spade and round types of coinage were issued in large number in a large variety of cities. Around 360 BC however, [I]Qin [/I]made its re-entry, after legalist philosopher [I]Shang Yang ([/I]商鞅) had implemented major reforms and renewals. [I]Wei, [/I]obviously impressed by the sudden [I]Qin-[/I]rise and fearing a swift invasion, moved their capital from the western city of [I]Anyi[/I] to the eastern city of Daliang; this city was located further from the border with [I]Qin [/I]than [I]Anyi[/I] had been. This fear was certainly not unfounded. In the year 292 BC, [I]Qin, [/I]led by general [I]Bai Qi [/I](白起), launched a massive and successful assault against the [I]Wei [/I]and [I]Han [/I]states, capturing several large cities, and even sacking the important city of, you guessed it, [I]Yuan [/I]垣, where these round coins were issued! Even though it was sacked, the control of [I]Yuan [/I]was quickly returned to [I]Wei [/I]again. This would not last long however, and the same [I]Qin [/I]general conquered the city again a mere two years later. They also conquered the previous capital of [I]Wei, Anyi, [/I]and several other major [I]Wei[/I] cities. [I]Yuan [/I]would remain under [I]Qin [/I]control for the remainder of the Warring States period, as part of the newly created [I]Yuan-county. [/I]If we assume that these round coins were indeed solely cast by the [I]Wei [/I]state, which the archaeological evidence certainly does support, we can now attach a certain end-date to this coinage: 290 BC! That is all the information I have concerning this type. If you have anything else to add, please do so! And just to finish off this topic, a picture of the two together. Both measure 42 MM, while the coin on the right, my initial round-coin, weights around 10.57 gram, as opposed to the 9.59 gram of the coin on the left. Both weights are well within the excepted weight-bracket for this type. [ATTACH=full]693248[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=full]693249[/ATTACH] So, which one do you prefer? I am still keeping both though, I can’t stand departing with a coin I have had in my collection for a while now; I have grown quite accustomed to it. And I am a big fan of these early round coins ;). I know several members here also have this [I]Yuan [/I]coin ([USER=81887]@Parthicus[/USER], [USER=78244]@TypeCoin971793[/USER] and perhaps [USER=75799]@Loong Siew[/USER]?), so I’d love to see those here! Post anything else you like by the way; round coins, other [I]Zhou [/I]coinage, or other ancient coins with a lovely (blue) patina! Let’s see those beauties! Mika[/QUOTE]
Your name or email address:
Do you already have an account?
No, create an account now.
Yes, my password is:
Forgot your password?
Stay logged in
Coin Talk
Home
Forums
>
Coin Forums
>
Ancient Coins
>
Newp: my second Yuan round coin!
>
Home
Home
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Activity
Recent Posts
Forums
Forums
Quick Links
Search Forums
Recent Posts
Competitions
Competitions
Quick Links
Competition Index
Rules, Terms & Conditions
Gallery
Gallery
Quick Links
Search Media
New Media
Showcase
Showcase
Quick Links
Search Items
Most Active Members
New Items
Directory
Directory
Quick Links
Directory Home
New Listings
Members
Members
Quick Links
Notable Members
Current Visitors
Recent Activity
New Profile Posts
Sponsors
Menu
Search
Search titles only
Posted by Member:
Separate names with a comma.
Newer Than:
Search this thread only
Search this forum only
Display results as threads
Useful Searches
Recent Posts
More...