New to Ancients

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by JAncient77, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. JAncient77

    JAncient77 Member

    Hello, I'm very very new to ancients. One thing that I'm really confused about is figuring values of coins. I inhereted some coins that really sparked my interest and rather than selling I would like to expand on my newly acquired collection. I love coins that are not slabbed but I do now have some expensive slabbed MS, CH MS and even a couple GEM Mint State slabbed ancient coins. I have no idea how to value these especially the GEM Mint State ones. Is there a way to go about identifying value? Is there a ballpark of what percentage a gem mint state ancient should sell for compared to say an auctioned near ef coin being sold on CNG? Just looking for a general metric for identifying coin values (current ones and possible new acquisitions). I'm finding myself overwhelmed at how to research values. In addition if I purchase through CNG, ATLAS, VCOINS, are these three dealers I can somewhat count on not getting ripped off? I realize prices fluctuate and can be subjective but if I purchase a fixed priced item can I count on it being priced within a 25% fair market value? The history and artistic value are fascinating to me and I'm looking forward to diving into this new world!
     
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  3. Curtisimo

    Curtisimo the Great(ish)

    Welcome to the ancients forum @JAncient77! I hope you stick around and post some of your coins!

    As far as values I look at CNG as my main source for current market value. As to what the grade on the slab is I would advise you to ignore it and use your eyes. In ancient collecting the slab will only garner you a premium with inexperienced collectors. You must learn to trust you eyes and compare the coin you are researching with coins you see have sold in the past and make reasonable assumptions from there.

    Vcoins is a mixed bag on reasonable prices. CNG is an auction house so price will be dictated by who wants that coin right then. If two people want it bad enough the price goes up... and sometimes up and up and up. Best to always do your due diligence before making a purchase... but don't worry that is part of the fun! :)

    In honor of your first post below is my first ever ancient coin.
    IMG_3915.JPG
    And again... welcome to CT ancients!
    IMG_4599.JPG
     
  4. Kentucky

    Kentucky Supporter! Supporter

    Welcome to the "Dark Side" of coin collecting. You will find that many of the more knowledgeable collectors (of which I am not one) will turn their noses up at slabbed coins and talk endlessly about freeing them from their prisons. Who slabbed the coins? In ancient coins, the coin is pretty much worth what someone will pay. The exact same coin sold in 5 different venues will get 5 different prices which can cover a spread of 10X or better sometimes. As far as buying coins, I would sincerely recommend learning to take pictures (let's see what you got now!!!) and posting coins you are thinking of buying to the ancient forum here. Have fun
     
    Stevearino and Roman Collector like this.
  5. beef1020

    beef1020 Junior Member

    Welcome to CT and to ancients in general. Your general question is a very good one, and it doesn't have an easy answer. I think most of us use auction prices to try to get a sense of value. CNG is a great resource. You can try sixbid.com as well. I also use acsearch.com, but it's a subscription site. Needless to say, you are on the right track.

    In terms of where I purchase, I think CNG is generally a good outlet for auction material. They tend to have nice material, a wide variety, and realistic start/estimates. I have bought coins from VCOINS, but I have also seen some dealers there with large markups, it's a bit of a mixed bag.

    You can also post pictures/details here and we are more than willing to give opinions, regardless of how unreliable they are :)... Last bit of advice, NGC mint state is basically xf to most ancient dealers.
     
  6. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Well-Known Member

    Pricing of ancient coins is kind of loosey-goosey, depending on more than just grade, but quality of strike, centering, state of preservation, artistry and "eye-appeal." There is no price-guide that is close to accurate and you have to compare similar examples from recent auctions to determine price. The more examples you can find, the better your estimate of value, so with commonly sold coins, such as denarii of Marcus Aurelius or Corinthian staters, it's pretty easy to value them. For coins that are so cheap they never go at auction or so unusual they hardly ever come up at auction, it's very hard to put a price on them. In the case of the former, low-grade examples may be nearly valueless and for the latter examples, they may only bring $50 at auction but the next time they come up for auction they might bring much more, depending on demand at the time in that particular auction.

    And when looking at auction prices, don't forget to add buyer's fees, PayPal transaction fees and shipping. A coin that goes for 60 British pounds might end up costing you $115 in the end.
     
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  7. beef1020

    beef1020 Junior Member

    Another really under appreciated point. Between buyers premium, wire transfer fee's, foreign exchange fees, and shipping, those 'cheap' auction wins can end up costing a lot more than you expected.
     
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  8. chrsmat71

    chrsmat71 I LIKE TURTLES!

    Welcome @JAncient77 !

    Good advice given above! I would post some pics of your coins, folks here can give you a pretty good ballpark value quickly.

    On vcoins, be sure when you find a coin type you are interested in search for what others are offering, compare rates with auction on top of that...and you can frequently find reasonably priced coins.
     
    Curtisimo likes this.
  9. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Welcome, @JAncient77 !

    Yay!! Most of us here do too :)

    You will not find direct comparisons for this in CNG's archives because they and most other ancient coin dealers do not use the modern coin grading terms MS, Ch MS, Gem, and AU. That doesn't mean CNG and others won't have fully comparable coins... just that they will be described as EF or, extremely rarely, as FDC.

    RomanCollector summed it up nicely :)
     
  10. Jwt708

    Jwt708 Well-Known Member

    I have nothing else to add except welcome @JAncient77 !
     
  11. JAncient77

    JAncient77 Member

    Thank you all very much for welcoming me to the "dark side." I appreciate everyones input. I need to learn how to properly eyeball conditions and am familiarizing myself with what sites like CNG consider NF, VF etc. I'll work on getting some pictures of the coins I currently have. The NCG slabbed Ch MS and GEM MS ones I was thinking would command a premium. Is a Mint State really considered XF? I've got a lot to learn!
     
    Roman Collector and Orfew like this.
  12. zumbly

    zumbly Ha'ina 'ia mai ana ka puana

    Welcome, @JAncient77. Can't wait to see some pictures of your coins. You've received some great advice up thread as it is.
     
    Orfew likes this.
  13. randygeki

    randygeki Coin Collector

    Welcome to ct
     
  14. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    Those who have collected ancients for a long time generally find things about coins that they value more highly than grade. This might be an interesting type or something tied to history. It might be style or artistic merit. Some would rather have VF in fine style than MS in 'made Friday afternoon'. Slabbed coins were 'invented' to attract collectors of modern slabbed coins who have no interest in the coins but only the labels. The advantage of the slabs is that you will be able to sell them to someone who is just coming over from moderns when you decide to collect coins that may not be in slabs or lose interest altogether. Collecting ancients can involve a lot of study and that does not mean Red Book/Gray Sheet market study. The question is whether you are interested in that style collecting or only financial gain.
     
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  15. Gavin Richardson

    Gavin Richardson Well-Known Member

    I tend to think of CNG as a place to consult for higher end coins. When I began, and to some extent today, most of my purchases were $60 or less, and for those needs, looking at VCoins was adequate for getting a gauge on market value. For relatively common coins, it's pretty easy to spot the overpriced outliers and determine what the middle of the road value is. Maybe you have a generous budget and are ready to jump in with higher end coins. If so, CNG will equip you with a good metric. If you want to ease into the hobby with more modest purchases, in my opinion, VCoins is adequate.

    And to echo others here, the discourse of "mint" or "gem mint" Is a foreign language for ancient collectors, whose coins are each struck by hand and thus will always show some difference. No two are exactly alike, even with die matches, and they have all enjoyed some measure of circulation in 2000 years, so "gem mint" discourse makes less sense. POOR, FAIR, GOOD, FINE, VERY FINE, EXCELLENT, FLEUR DE COIN are the more common terms for ancients grading.

    And as you may have sensed, there is a bit of an animus against slabbed coins among ancients collectors. While ancients collectors aren't indifferent to monetary value, I generally find the overwhelming majority are motivated to collect by a love of history. Actually touching the coin itself is part of that physical connection to the material culture of ancient peoples. This is my theory on why slabs are less popular among ancients collectors.

    And of course, welcome!
     
  16. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    It's natural for any collector to ask how to value his/her coins.

    ACSEARCH will display the hammer price of coins sold at auction, but it charges around $100 per year for this service.

    CNG has a great RESEARCH function that includes SOLD prices, and in addition, it includes coins sold at its eAuctions, which are not as highly priced as its Coin Shop and Printed Auctions:

    Screen Shot 2017-07-25 at 6.53.50 AM.png

    Click the RESEARCH button and then fill out the form to find coins similar to yours.

    Vcoins dealers will also be a good resource for retail prices on a wide range of coins. Be aware, however, that many of these prices can be successfully negotiated downward, so they may represent inflated prices for coins similar to yours.

    Finally, get used to grading for ancient coins (as described by Gavin Richardson above) because you'll rarely, if ever, see the grades that you cite in your original question (e.g., MS, CH, GEM). As Doug mentions, learn to use and trust your eyes, not others' opinions of grades.
     
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  17. dougsmit

    dougsmit Member

    I very strongly agree with Ides on the value of the resource provided free by CNG and am thankful for them and the other dealers that have made the free Internet a good place for ancient coins. However I do warn that learning to read such things as CNG as a price guide is no easy thing. The first thing you should learn is there is no rational pattern to these prices. You will find the same coin selling for half and double and several examples of a better looking coin selling for less than an inferior one. In some cases there may be a minor point only seen by a few that explains discrepancies but often it is just a matter of two big dogs going for the same bone one day and neither caring the next. To me, the main value of these listings is in the textual details and great photos with much less weight on the prices unless you look at the overall big picture and apply some common sense.
     
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  18. IdesOfMarch01

    IdesOfMarch01 Well-Known Member

    This happens more often than you might think, and it's both educational and amusing to see the same coin that sold for, say, $150 two years ago just sold recently for $80.

    The amusement factor is lessened, of course, if you're the person who paid $150 for that coin.

    To reiterate, don't get fixated on prices no matter how thorough your research is.
     
    Mikey Zee, Svarog, Curtisimo and 5 others like this.
  19. Nerva

    Nerva Well-Known Member

    I also started collecting quite recently after inheriting some coins and deciding to develop the collection. Doug Smith, who is on this forum, has written a useful article about the difficulty of grading ancients, which I found helpful: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/impossible.html
    I think it's a question of training your own eye and developing your own taste. Different people make different trade-offs between (for example) sharpness of strike, completeness of image, quality of metal.
     
    Mikey Zee, Carl Wilmont and Curtisimo like this.
  20. Ed Snible

    Ed Snible Well-Known Member

    For most ancient coins, the value doubles as the grade goes up. So an AU would be worth twice an EF, and a MS would be worth that.

    Different graders grade differently. Sometimes a coin graded EF by CNG and a coin graded Choice AU by NGC have the same grade.

    Some rules (Severus Alexander, some Parthians) left a lot more MS coins than others and unless you know that it is hard to figure out how to price them.

    This assumes the coins will be sold by the same venue. Some sales venues seem to attract more spendy buyers.
     
    Mikey Zee and TIF like this.
  21. ab initio

    ab initio Well-Known Member

    There are so many different ways of collecting ancient coins that beginners usually take some time before they decide what kind of collecting suits their personality. It took me about ten years before I settled into collecting by geographical area. And this was because I was living in a "source" country and thought I could find more and cheaper coins because of this. As it turned out I was wrong and found out about it too late and the hard way.
    Books are important, one of the Sayles books can be a real eye opener and help you decide which direction to take.
    One thing that struck me after following CT for some months and getting to know the preferences of the various members is how varied these can be. Some people like to connect their coins to history, some like to think of them as art, some stress rarity and some collect coins that appeal to them for reasons that are too esoteric or too vague and as a result cannot be easily understood by others. There are cases where the collector is obviously aiming to a distant, or not so distant, objective, like completing a run of the 12 Caesars or as many Roman Republic families as possible; other efforts can be completely "open ended", such as collecting mythological reverses on Roman Provincial bronzes.
    In short, time will tell if you find ancient coin collecting rewarding enough to be something you will maintain for a lifetime in whatever form this may take. The collectors that do, can speak about "the pleasure factor", something that has no connection to monetary value. I would advise you to always think less about the resale value of your purchases and more about how to get the most pleasure out of them.
     
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